I am finally in a position to take the plunge and purchase my own airplane. I have decided on a 182 (https://www.backcountrypilot.org/forum/mountain-commuter-16280), preferably a straight tail. I read through the various ownership threads on this forum and found this https://www.backcountrypilot.org/forum/first-time-ownership-what-am-i-missing-9101 thread to be the most helpful regarding the purchasing process. I still have a few questions that I have not found answers to.

1. I am a student pilot with zero hours in a 182 (all hours are in a 172 w/ 180 hp, non-CS). Are there insurance brokers/companies that are more friendly to student pilots purchasing a plane?

2. I will have a mechanic of my choosing complete a annual on the plane. What is the typical cost for a 182 annual? I just need the base price that I should expect the mechanic to charge. My plan is to write the purchase agreement such that any issues that are discovered during the annual will be remedied and paid for by the seller.

3. If the purchase went through, my current plan would be to fly out (commercial) with my CFI to pickup and ferry the plane back home. I figure this way I can get some time logged immediately. Does this make financial sense or should I just pay to get it ferried back home?

Thanks!

Cool,

1) There has to be someone in the area that will give you a ride in a 182 (seeing how you have no experience in one). I would start there before you fly a CFI/Mech and yourself across the country looking for one.

2) Old 182's come in all conditions, a good prebuy should keep the dream from becoming a nightmare. The route you want to fly is not the country I'd want to be 2nd guessing my equipment while flying over.

3) Learn about the year changes and study up on 182's. Try to get one the at has had some recent TLC with good logs. Buying a sitting cream puff for your first plane could be costly.

4) Annuals may differ vastly between if you assist or go with a high end shop in the area. Base range could be from 500-2500 depending.

5) Call a few insurance companies to see what they will quote you for full coverage. This will be good to know when budgeting how much plane you can afford.

6) Have fun and enjoy the journey, there's nothing like owning your own plane!

MM

I dont live in the USA so just will answer number 3.

Fly commercial with your CFI to get it and fly it back to your base airport,it will be fun and you will get to know the plane.
I did like you did, the day after I got my PPL I started flying my 182 with a CFI for a few hrs,then I was on my own a great adveture and learning process that will never end.

Have fun, congrats

I just added an employeee to the insurance on my 182. He had all 172 hours prior as you have. I pay about $900/year for insurance on a $85,000 hull. They charged an extra $350 for him with 75 total time, so I assume you'd be in the $1200/yr range if the plane was of the same value. You need a high performance endorsement for constant speed prop and cowl flaps. I spent 6-8 hours with him on a cross country playing with all the gadgets and coaching him on landings before we felt good about a solo. After the 10th landing, he kicked me out and took it on a 17 hour trip to the midwest and back. The hardest thing transitioning from skyhawks is getting used to the heavier nose. They like a little power in the flare, especially with a lot of flap. Don't be surprised if you knock the taste out of your mouth the first time, but you won't forget again. I usually have something installed at the annual that isn't required but the essentials are around $1000/yr. There's a boatload of AD's that will frustrate you if they aren't complied with. Not only are they expensive, but usually require a bunch of ferrying around from shop to shop as some are Authorized Cessna only, others are "take it to ABC because they do a 100 seat rail AD's a year and we don't etc. Make sure it's got good cylinder heads, a straight firewall, no red die in the spinner, and check the fuel bladders real close,

My opinion is to be there when it is my airplane and flown - so yes, I would go out there and fly it back.

I would also try to get some 182 time as soon as possible. I found it very different from a 172. Great airplane, I am sure you will love it.

Weather is now very interesting for cross country flights - force yourself to have time and discipline to wait for reasonable weather (both your CFI and you should have veto votes). Construct a plan to heat the engine on the trip home be it heated hangars, Dragon heaters, or light bulbs fed by extension cords.

My two cents is not to fly a new to you airplane on IFR flights (assuming your CFI is instrument rated and the plane is IFR current) and not to fly the plane over mountain ranges with forecast winds 20 knots or greater.

Congratulations

Sounds like you got a good plan. My insurance company only required 1 hour of dual to check out and get high performance rating. But I was not a student and had 100 pic time. Word of advise. If your married and looking at the straight tail - do not, I repeat do not! let the wife look at a wide body 182! It will be game over

My insurance didn't require any dual time going to my C-180 from my Citabria. But I'm Canadian so maybe its different up here.

Back in 2007 I was pretty much in the same boat you're in right now. Except I didn't have any logged flight training in any type of aircraft.

My 182 search and purchase went something like this........

Looked at a few 182 around southwest Idaho, one in Utah and a few online. My friend Joe (Mechanic and CFI) and I went to look at my 182 in Vale, OR to look at the plane and logs. Long story short, my friends already knew about this plane, knew the mechanic that has done the recent annuals, and knew how meticulous the owner before me had keep the plane. So we didn't bother with a pre-buy annual. Just a simple but thorough inspection if the plane and logs.

After agreeing to buy the plane, we met at Ontario, OR to exchange transaction. Our Friend Ed at Caldwell flew Joe and I to Ontario in his sweet RV12 and a couple of other friends flew in seperate planes. Gave the owner a check. He cleaned out his (now mine) 182. Then Joe and I flew my 182 back to Caldwell. That flight was my first logged training hour in my 182.

Insurance thru AOPA..... If I remember right. My first year as a Student Pilot was about $1500.00. It kept dropping big each year as I gained more hours and ended up around $800.00 a year now.

My annuals would average around $1300.00 a year.

There were some naysayers (including one potential seller), but it really is a great plane to learn to fly in. Just use good engine management skills, land with nose high attitude and you'll be fine.

Good luck in your search. Unless you come across a unique situation like mine, make sure you do a very thorough pre-buy inspection!!

For all you Colorado aviators wanting to check out a 56 182 get ahold of Mike Donnely down at KFLY (Near Colorado Springs ) Mike's personal N5830B is a prime example of old straight tail -and Mike is a CFII . Good friend and I do all his annuals every year for last 15 years.
Contact me at [email protected] and I'll get you his number.

Some thoughts:

1. Sounds like a good plan. Bear in mind, however, that once you get into this, it's going to cost you something to walk away. Be prepared to do so, even if it means you and your CFI go home without the plane.

2. Have a title search done. AOPA does them. Become a member, and order a title search. You don't want to buy a plane and later find that a bank holds a lien against it.

3. You'll need a "High Performance Endorsement"....it has nothing to do with constant speed prop or cowl flaps....it's because the plane has more than 200 hp.

4. You can't get a firm insurance quote from more than one broker. Brokers do NOT insure aircraft....underwriters do. A broker "brokers" the insurance for you...they are your representative in this insurance deal. A GOOD broker will shop all the underwriters out there to find you the best deal....and of course, the broker will also get his cut of the deal. When you engage a broker to represent you, that broker is the only broker who can shop the underwriters on your behalf. If you go to another broker, they SHOULD tell you that you'll have to "fire" the other broker, and "hire" them to represent you. You can only be represented by ONE broker in this business. The underwriters see more than one request for the same airplane, they're going to have a negative chat with some brokers.

BUT, you can get two insurance quotes: Get one from a reputable broker (I've used Falcon, and I understand that AOPA has a good program) then call AVEMCO. AVEMCO is NOT a broker....they are a direct underwriter. They do not insure through brokers, they write their own policies. See which quote is better and go there.

5. As a new aircraft owner, join AOPA if you haven't already. They represent us in many ways, to protect our privilege to fly.

Good luck.

MTV

singletrack wrote:......... My plan is to write the purchase agreement such that any issues that are discovered during the annual will be remedied and paid for by the seller........

IMHO airplanes (at least my airplanes) are for sale as is, where is. As a seller, I wouldn't sign a purchase agreement with a "seller fixes everything" clause like that. There's issues, and then there's issues. Some IA's demand certain things be done before they sign off an annual that aren't strictly required for airworthiness. Sometimes due to pet peeves, sometimes because they sense some deep pockets.
Here's a small example- some years ago, I had the local shop annual my 170. The owner told me I needed a new ELT battery. I'm pretty much on top of my airplane maintenance, and told him that no, the ELT battery was good through another 6 months- at which time I'd replace it. He told me that since it would expire before my next annual, he would then be liable for the airplane being unairrworthy and so I HAD to replace it now. A $40 ELT battery wasn't worth a big fight or worth walking away with a big bill without an annual signoff, so I got the battery. But I haven't been back to that guy since.
Personally I would try to find a more local airplane, hopefully one that you or your friends have some personal knowledge of. Go take a look at it in person and go through the logbooks- if you're not familiar with aircraft paperwork, take someone along. Then if you're still interested, hire someone to do a pre-buy and/or annual inspection. Be advised that there seems to be a universal rule (maybe related to Murphy's Law) that the farther away an airplane for sale is located, the greater the chance that it will be a turd.

rjb wrote:....I would also try to get some 182 time as soon as possible. I found it very different from a 172. Great airplane, I am sure you will love it..........

I would also advise you to get some 182 time, preferably in the same vintage 182 you're considering buying. I have about 1700 hours in a C170, and another 800 in a C150/150TD, but found that my newly-purchased C180 is a very different airplane than the two lighter Cessna taildraggers. I'm starting to feel pretty comfortable in it now after 10 or 12 hours, but in my case anyway there was a pretty steep learning curve involved.
The 180/182 is a lot more capable airplane than the (stock) 170/172, of course, but it comes with a price-- IMHO other than the hangar it will cost you about 50% more to own and operate a C180/182 than it would a (stock) 170/172. Higher fuel bills, insurance, repairs, everything. If you can afford it, great. But you don't want to get into a situation where you can't fly much because the higher costs crimp your budget too much. Or where you can afford to fly it, barely, then have an expensive problem (usually engine related) ground you until you can save up enough to get it fixed.

mtv wrote:Some thoughts:
2. Have a title search done. AOPA does them. Become a member, and order a title search. You don't want to buy a plane and later find that a bank holds a lien against it.
Good luck.

MTV

Good, sound advice about getting a title search. Another source is Aerospace reports, which can also handle title insurance and escrow, should the need for either arise. BTW a cloud on a title isn't necessarily a deal-breaker. An outfit such as Insured Aircraft Title Service may be able to remove it for you, depending on the nature of the cloud.
-DP

p.s. I'm with hotrod180 in terms of as-is, where-is, both as a seller and as a buyer. If you're buying, it's your responsibility to do due diligence in the pre-buy, then dicker accordingly if you feel you have grounds to.

hotrod180 wrote:

singletrack wrote:......... My plan is to write the purchase agreement such that any issues that are discovered during the annual will be remedied and paid for by the seller........

IMHO airplanes (at least my airplanes) are for sale as is, where is. As a seller, I wouldn't sign a purchase agreement with a "seller fixes everything" clause like that.

+1 on that... Most guys I know would tell a buyer like that to go pound sand. For sure its a buyers market, but a softer approach might be a better option.

Also, as suggested... looking at as many aircraft as possible is in ones best interest. Yeah it gets pricey trekking around the country looking at machines, but for your first one, there is so much that can bite you, especially if you have no idea personally about what to look for and you are working with an AP that you dont know/trust.

Best advice I was ever given was from Dave Younkin when I was rushing around trying to find my first airplane. "Son," he said, "There is a lot of iron out there." Was good advice.

Im not trying to discourage... ABSOLUTELY go for it and get an airplane. I just think that the idea of using it as a "commuting" tool might be a bit far fetched. Its nice in theory, but that all weather Subaru w/ heated seats and 4WD is prob the better option.

Greatest of luck! We are all rooting for you!

Also, Google the tail number and search the NTSB database for accident reports. You'd be surprised what doesn't make it into the log books and what owners either don't know or neglect to disclose. If you're a member of Cessna Pilots Association or other boards that have aircraft maintenance topics, search for posts by the seller to see if there clues about damage or maintenance issues. I once found posts by a seller of a plane I was looking at where he was asking for sources of used cylinders because a couple of his had gone punky and he didn't want to spring for new ones because he was selling. That made it easy to pass on that one.

BTW, the early 182 is a great ship, but, having happily flown the first year of the wide body (1962) for 15 years on all kinds of trips and strips, I have to defend its honor. It's still light (mine was 1725 empty/2800 gross) and there's enough room for two large guys up front without having to rub shoulders. Drawbacks are electric toggle flaps and a small elevator. Neither is a deal-killer unless you're going to put it on ABWs.

My $.02

CAVU

CAVU wrote:Also, Google the tail number and search the NTSB database for accident reports. You'd be surprised what doesn't make it into the log books and what owners either don't know or neglect to disclose...

CAVU

Excellent point! I once made contact this way with a former owner in Canada, of a plane that was subsequently re-registered in the United States under a new N-number. Turns out the "creampuff" I was looking at had been completely submerged in salt water. It's useful to do a Google image search, with several variants on "Cessna", "182", with and without the "N".
-DP

singletrack wrote:I am finally in a position to take the plunge and purchase my own airplane. I have decided on a 182 (https://www.backcountrypilot.org/forum/mountain-commuter-16280), preferably a straight tail. I read through the various ownership threads on this forum and found this https://www.backcountrypilot.org/forum/first-time-ownership-what-am-i-missing-9101 thread to be the most helpful regarding the purchasing process. I still have a few questions that I have not found answers to.

1. I am a student pilot with zero hours in a 182 (all hours are in a 172 w/ 180 hp, non-CS). Are there insurance brokers/companies that are more friendly to student pilots purchasing a plane?

2. I will have a mechanic of my choosing complete a annual on the plane. What is the typical cost for a 182 annual? I just need the base price that I should expect the mechanic to charge. My plan is to write the purchase agreement such that any issues that are discovered during the annual will be remedied and paid for by the seller.

3. If the purchase went through, my current plan would be to fly out (commercial) with my CFI to pickup and ferry the plane back home. I figure this way I can get some time logged immediately. Does this make financial sense or should I just pay to get it ferried back home?

Thanks!

I just purchased a 182 with zero time in type. I had logged roughly 90 hours in a cherokee and 20 hours in a 172.
1. The insurance company just required me to have a cfi with 300tt and 10m/m sign me off for a high performance endorsement. It took me two hours of flight time and now I'm good to go.
2. Although I'm not sure the cost of a 182 annual, my cherokee was roughly 800 with zero squawks. I'm looking at probably 1,100 for the 182 with zero squawks.
3. I would fly out with my cfi and fly home with him/her. That's a good idea to log time and get an overall comfort in the plane before you take her up solo.

I hope this helps. Good luck!

i would highly recommend this book. it tells you a lot about all models and what problems to look for in all of them
http://www.sportys.com/pilotshop/product/9889

bigrenna wrote:

hotrod180 wrote:

singletrack wrote:......... My plan is to write the purchase agreement such that any issues that are discovered during the annual will be remedied and paid for by the seller........

IMHO airplanes (at least my airplanes) are for sale as is, where is. As a seller, I wouldn't sign a purchase agreement with a "seller fixes everything" clause like that.

+1 on that... Most guys I know would tell a buyer like that to go pound sand. For sure its a buyers market, but a softer approach might be a better option.

Also, as suggested... looking at as many aircraft as possible is in ones best interest. Yeah it gets pricey trekking around the country looking at machines, but for your first one, there is so much that can bite you, especially if you have no idea personally about what to look for and you are working with an AP that you dont know/trust.

Best advice I was ever given was from Dave Younkin when I was rushing around trying to find my first airplane. "Son," he said, "There is a lot of iron out there." Was good advice.

Im not trying to discourage... ABSOLUTELY go for it and get an airplane. I just think that the idea of using it as a "commuting" tool might be a bit far fetched. Its nice in theory, but that all weather Subaru w/ heated seats and 4WD is prob the better option.

Greatest of luck! We are all rooting for you!

I would not ask for EVERYTHING to be fixed, but what I would put in the contract is that the seller is responsible for fixing any AIRWORTHY issue that is uncovered in the pre-buy inspection - if they decline they pay for the pre-buy inspection. Take a look at the AOPA purchase contract, in the resources section for members. It has some good language around that in the contract.