So I've been approached twice in the last 4 years. Both times while with other BCP pilots who were there with their planes also. Hello Trent and Rob! At the time I really didn't mind and in the first case with Trent, the deputy was really good about it and explained to us why he wanted to question us. It made sense and we agreed to let him look in our windows. I think that was the right call in that circumstance and it worked out well for him and us.

The second time I was slow on the throttle and looked off my left wing while Rob was already rolling to see a Sheriff pulled along side me. I shut down, opened the window and said howdy what can I do for you. He said I just need to come out and check that you guys aren't running drugs or something. So I told him it wasn't anything that exciting, we were going camping and just stopped to take a leak. By that time he was at the window and the back of the plane was loaded to the hilt. We Bs'd awhile longer and realized we both knew the same people from Nevada so had a common connection. We departed Ibex shortly afterwards for Caveman. That was 2 years ago. That encounter was fine too. It is definitely a judgement call on the pilots part. I don't think there is a one size fits all. I've been dealing with rural western state LEO's for a long time. Most of them are good folks with a job to do and I appreciate their efforts-mostly. Then there are the unprofessional a-holes; an encounter with one of those may not go so well. In neither of the above cases did they ask to search the plane. They could have but I think our attitudes demeaner and openness reduced the possibility. It just depends on the circumstances; if it ever happens again, I'm much better informed about my rights and what to do if I don't feel the requests are in my best interest. Thanks for posting the info about how to politely decline a search request.

Damn , I posted that from an iPhone and the auto correct didn't do me any favors! No clue how to edit from here either.

Demeaned should be demeanor and purely should be politely.

I am one of those "do not have anything to hide kinda guys". Being a part of the solution not the problem, is what I have learned.

Deleted

mtv wrote:First thing you need to do is to actually READ FAR 61.3, which in pertinent part, reads:

(l) Inspection of certificate. Each person who holds an airman certificate, medical certificate, authorization, or license required by this part must present it and their photo identification as described in paragraph (a)(2) of this section for inspection upon a request from:

(1) The Administrator;

(2) An authorized representative of the National Transportation Safety Board;

(3) Any Federal, State, or local law enforcement officer; or

(4) An authorized representative of the Transportation Security Administration.

Note that ANY Federal, State or Local law enforcement officer may, under this regulation, conduct a ramp check. The regulation does not distinguish between FAA employees (referenced here under the authority of the Administrator) and other "federal, state and local law enforcement officers".

That does NOT suggest that you should EVER consent to a warrantless search, by the way. I concur with that part. But, give some attitude to a local county mountie, informing them that they don't have the authority to ramp check you and you are likely to come to grief.

I've had students ramp checked by Customs and Border Protection pilots who were refueling a helicopter. Frankly, it was a good experience for the students....nothing out of the ordinary, the CBP guys simply asked to look at the paperwork.

If they want to search your airplane, I agree....tell them not without a search warrant.

Don't get yourself jammed up because you didn't actually READ the regs, though.

MTV

Ahh...MTV...this section does not pertain to a ramp check. These people, in this statute are given the authority to check your personal pilot credentials. They are not given any authority to look in your plane. That is a different piece of regulation and it is only for FAA ASI's...

Troy,

FAA Inspectors have no authority to "search" an airplane during a ramp check either. All they're authorized to do there is verify "airworthiness" and that only minimally. They can and should ask to see the pertinent aircraft documents....which YOU retrieve and present to them. That's Airworthiness Cert., Registration, and Weight and Balance data.

I also carry a copy of the aircrafts most recent annual inspection and AD search and compliance record. With that in hand in a three ring binder, the FAA Inspector is pretty much done. Don't have evidence of a current annual aboard? They MAY ask you to bring those to their office at a later date. By having copies on board, they are done. "Can I look inside the airplane?" No, but I'll retrieve anything you need to see.
They do not have authority to search. If they see something ugly, they can hang a tag and emergency ground the aircraft, but they'd better have a REALLY good reason for one of those deals....

Inspection over. And having everything organized in a binder (except the A/W cert. which must be displayed in the cabin) most Inspectors are very impressed with your organization. It really does help.

And, yes, I HAVE been ramp checked several times, mostly during a period of time when the Alaska Feds figured ramping everyone would fix all ills....

MTV

Glad this came up.
What about the patriots act? (great name for something that could not be less patriotic)
Within 100 miles of border or coast no federal agent needs a warrant to search you or your property for any reason.
This whole thing makes me sick.
And it's not about "I have nothing to hide". It's about freedom.

blackrock wrote:....It is definitely a judgement call on the pilots part. I don't think there is a one size fits all. I've been dealing with rural western state LEO's for a long time. Most of them are good folks with a job to do and I appreciate their efforts-mostly. Then there are the tire a-holes too and in an encounter with one of those may not go so well. In neither of the above cases did they ask to search the plane. They could have but I think our attitudes demeaned and openness reduced the possibility. ....

How these encounters turn out usually depends on your attitude. I found this out a long time ago. You give a LEO attitude, you get attitude back-- and they are usually more effective at it than you are. Just be your normal nice-guy self and as long as you're not doing anything wrong it usually turns out OK. The one problem in our case is that some LEO's assume that even if contraband is not involved, there is something wrong about landing off-airport-- they can't cite the statute being violated, but they just know it's against the law!

EZ put some thought into this. I like his thinking.
The main thing I learned long ago was pick your battles. If you play lawyer out on the ramp, it might take a bunch of your leisure time and send it up in smoke. Your choice. I know it isn't a nice reality.... but it is reality.

Just got the knee board form to deal with the warrant-less search issue:

See http://www.aopa.org/-/media/Files/AOPA/ ... eboard.pdf

I always wondered where the Airworthiness request and other things CBP keep asking for comes from and it turns out Homeland Security writes their own rules and are too freaking big to be told "No.".

TD

TomD wrote:Just got the knee board form to deal with the warrant-less search issue:

See http://www.aopa.org/-/media/Files/AOPA/ ... eboard.pdf

I always wondered where the Airworthiness request and other things CBP keep asking for comes from and it turns out Homeland Security writes their own rules and are too freaking big to be told "No.".

TD

Always: Be courteous and respectful, remain calm. Answer
questions truthfully but succinctly: do not volunteer information.
Step 1: Inquire as to what is going on. Law enforcement may respond that
they are conducting a ramp check or an inspection.
Step 2: Request to see law enforcement’s official identification.
Step 3: Law enforcement asks for documents.
Note: FAA Regulation 61.51(i) (1) states that “a person must present
their pilot certificate, medical certificate, logbook, or any other record
required by this part for inspection upon a reasonable request by the
Administrator, NTSB, any Federal, State, or local law enforcement officer.”
Exercising Privileges of Private, Commercial, or ATP pilot:
- Must have pilot certificate.
- Must have appropriate photo ID.
- Must have medical certificate.
- Does not have to have logbook in possession, but must be
given reasonable time to obtain and present to the official.
Exercising Privileges of Sport Pilot:
- Must have pilot certificate.
- Must have valid U.S. driver’s license.
- Must have required authorized instructor endorsements.
Exercising Privileges of Student Pilot:
- Must have student pilot certificate.
- Must have appropriate photo ID.
- Must have medical certificate.
- Must have logbook.
What To Do
If Stopped By Law Enforcement
CONTINUED ON OTH ER SIDE
FOLD HERE
AIRCRAFT OWNERS AND PILOT S ASSOCIAT ION
421 AVIAT ION WAY , FREDERICK, MD 21701 | AOPA .ORG
Note: Law enforcement may ask for other documents than those specified
under FAR 61.51(i). Existing guidance by CBP to law enforcement
incorrectly states pilots must present for inspection airworthiness certificate,
weight and balance calculations, aircraft logbooks, etc. AOPA
is working to correct this misinformation. Politely advise the officer FAR
61.51(i) only requires the documents listed above, and under aircraft
registration statutes, presentation of the aircraft registration certificate.
Step 4: Inquire:
- Under what authority are you doing this?
- Am I under arrest?
- Am I being detained?
- Am I free to go?
Step 5: Inquire as to who is in charge and document the following:
- Name of agency.
- Officer’s name, badge number, and phone number.
- Officer’s supervisor or commander’s name and phone number.
Step 6: Law enforcement may ask or state that they are going to inspect
or search the aircraft and its contents visually, physically, or with dogs.
Make the following statements:
- “I do not consent to this search, but I will not interfere”.
- “If you disassemble any part of this aircraft, including
inspection plates, you may be rendering this aircraft unairworthy”.(SO I HAVE A QUESTION HERE_WHAT LAW OR RULE ARE THEY BREAKING? SPECIFICALLY BY MAKING YOUR AIRCRAFT UNAIRWORTHY?)(Would this be under part 143??)
Step 7: If you are a member of the AOPA Pilot Protection Services,
and it is during normal business hours, call 1-800-872-2672 to speak
with a plan attorney.
Step 8: If possible record the event with a cell phone or camera. If
not available, make detailed written notes during the event or as soon
as practical.
Step 9: Check your emotional status! Are you able to continue
your flight safely after such an ordeal?

Thanks

You guys sure are lawyering up in advance of that very remote possibility of being searched. Good luck with that. Another bit of reality you might not have thought about. Let's say your religious beliefs don't lead you to want to undergo an autopsy. Or your spouse just doesn't like the idea of you being dissected. Crash a car and die... she or he will get the body back pretty promptly. Then they can burn or bury you. Crash and die in your plane, and you will likely be cut, poked and prodded whether you or your remaining loved ones like it or not. They will give back what is left, with some crude sutures possibly. That constitutes a pretty invasive search in my book. The FAA will use any bit of data from a tox screen or internal body analysis.... to put the blame for the crash squarely on you. Since you won't be testifying to any observed phenomenon not related to your medical condition... the report will likely be very simple for the FEDS. I see the AOPA is rattling their little sword today in the press about the searches without probable cause.
Just watch and see how long CBP/Congress ignores them. I still pay my dues, but remain a realist.
Fly safe y'all.

I love this discussion. I am quite active in the political process via a PAC here in Utah.

There are always many variables to consider in any situation. If you're comfortable with giving up your rights, that is your right. If you choose to make a stand and exercise your rights, then that is your right.

I believe that most of our brothers in law enforcement are patriot OATH KEEPERS. Consider the consistent pressure they're under before you decide to give them a hard time.

I'm a constitutionalist. I try to keep it real. But we are all unpredictable and inconsistent humans, all of us.

MOLON LABE!

The point is specifically NOT to give anyone in law enforcement a hard time. That would be a quick way to more trouble than anyone needs.

But, the point remains that you do not have to allow your rights as a citizen trampled just because you're flying an airplane. Be polite and respectful, but assert your rights.

MTV

mtv wrote:The point is specifically NOT to give anyone in law enforcement a hard time. That would be a quick way to more trouble than anyone needs.

But, the point remains that you do not have to allow your rights as a citizen trampled just because you're flying an airplane. Be polite and respectful, but assert your rights.

MTV

I was like minded with a few of you who would never think it would happen to me!!
Even if you don't give them a hard time you can get some serious BS
2 years ago after an aircraft accident I was arrested and injured from an overzealous local LEO, Took 6 months and about $47,000 to repair my shoulder, and it is still not 100%
So be vigilant, but even if you follow the rules there are a few LEO out there who think they are GOD! The 5th amendment does not always work!!!! Even if your right!!
There are bad apples, please don't let it spoil the whole box. By the most part LEO have there Job to do and they do it very well!

what about the 100 miles from border or coast not needing a search warrant anymore. Anyone versed on that?? I understand no federal agent needs a warrant any longer. House, car, plane, person, whatever. Theyre coming little by little

55wagon wrote:what about the 100 miles from border or coast not needing a search warrant anymore. Anyone versed on that?? I understand no federal agent needs a warrant any longer. House, car, plane, person, whatever. Theyre coming little by little

Get used to it. The new immigration reform bill amended yesterday afternoon just doubled the number of CBP agents.