After a six-month delay due to COVID, I finally finished up school, passed the final two written exams and successfully completed the oral and practical exam to get my A&P license.

Knowing full well that it is just another license to learn, I’m looking for advice from all you salty A&P’s out there on whatever you think is worth passing along (tips, tools, techniques, etc.)

For reference, I will be helping work on the Beavers at work (radials, not turbines; straight Edo’s, no amphibs; de Havilland wheel skis), doing annuals on my 185 under my IA’s supervision, potentially doing some work on a Top Cub at work, and hopefully building an experimental or rebuilding a certified Super Cub at some point. No plans to do any work for hire except maybe for a brother or two (which could be a train wreck in itself I guess...).


Thanks in advance for your words of wisdom.


Henny

Congrats Henny. That's not an easy accomplishment and you should be stoked you finished! [emoji1360]

Inspections can't be supervised. As an A&P you can do 100 hour inspections, but there is no (legal) avenue in which your IA can supervise you doing an annual inspection on your 185.

Now I know there are lots of folks that don't care and break that rule with "owner assisted" annuals, but not sure I'd go writing about it publicly now that you're a certificated mechanic.

I'd recommend getting familiar with the following As you navigate the beginning of your A&P career:

§ 65.81 - General privileges and limitations
§ 65.83 - Recent experience requirements
§ 65.91 - Inspection authorization
§ 65.95 - Inspection authorization: Privileges and limitations

I'm sure you plan on becoming an IA in a few years so these are useful to know too:

§ 65.92 - Inspection authorization: Duration
§ 65.93 - Inspection authorization: Renewal

Just like how a private pilot certificate makes it legal for you to be PIC in a wide variety of aircraft, it's only what you've been checked out in that you can actually legally fly. Same with the A&P. Expand your horizons and work with as many other seasoned mechanics in as many different kinds of aircraft and engines that you can. It's a fun journey and you've already done the hardest part.

Wrenching and fixing stuff is the easiest and most enjoyable part. The paperwork and regulations is the most tedious but arguably just as important.

Remember that you can never go wrong with approved parts and data.

Aryana-

Thanks for the response and advice. All of it is very much appreciated. I am definitely very much stoked to be done!

Yep, what I meant to say was that I would be watching and learning from my IA as he performs the annual. What is your take on repairs for discrepancies that the IA finds during his inspection? Must he perform the repair himself or can he have an A&P perform it, as long as it isn’t major? I believe there has been some disagreement and maybe even some legal action on this item? I know one of the A&P written test questions dealt directly with this issue.

Thanks,

Henny

It’s perfectly acceptable for an IA to make an entry in the aircraft logs stating aircraft inspected IAW (blah blah) annual inspection with noted discrepancies and is unairworthy until such repairs made. At this point an A&P (or repair station) can return the airplane to service as long as they’re rated to perform the repairs and make a log entry, make sense?

In regards to beavers I worked 3 summers doing 1-2 100 inspections a night, super fun! 2 guys could knock out a good inspection with servicing and repairs in about 5 hours. The gray hairs always said about the beaver to concentrate on the engine and the tail because they took all the abuse on floats. There was a ton of time put into corrosion control as the machines were in the salt every day so that took up a lot of time. The float strut attach fittings were always trying to return to their natural state...

We ran fine wire plugs in the engines which worked great, they never fouled and the rear set only came out maybe every 400 hours. We had our own overhaul shop at the time and ran about 800-900 hours a year per airframe (8) and those engines were just great.

Our deHavilland machines were very reliable compared to the Cessna products, they’re just built better.

Yes, an IA can give the owner a discrepancy list for the annual inspection and an A&P can sign it off once everything has been remedied.

This stamp pictured below is used by IA's for exactly that purpose. IA does the inspection, then provides a list of discrepancies and unairworthy items to the owner, and they move on down the road never to been seen again. Any A&P can take that list, remedy those discrepancies, make a log book entry and the aircraft is good to go.



It works quite well when cheap, I mean frugal owners want their IA to fix the discrepancies as part of their annual inspection. Using this entry, there is a clear separation between the IA getting paid for their inspection and an A&P getting paid to remedy the unairworthy items.

That stamp says it's been inspected but not that it is airworthy.
As a non-licensed mechanic owner, it seems to me that the IA would have to make another entry,
signing off the airplane as airworthy after the A&P corrected any discrepencies.

Congratulations!!

By chance, did you take your practical tests with Tom at MCTC in Minneapolis yesterday? I thought I saw someone testing that looked like you. Regardless, awesome job!

hotrod180 wrote:That stamp says it's been inspected but not that it is airworthy.
As a non-licensed mechanic owner, it seems to me that the IA would have to make another entry,
signing off the airplane as airworthy after the A&P corrected any discrepencies.

Eric, I’ll try to answer your question as it was explained to me. This took me some mental gymnastics to understand the reasoning but this is what we were taught. Hopefully I’m not spewing bull. lol.

Anyways, 43.11(a)(5) reads “Except for progressive inspections, if the aircraft is not approved for return to service because of needed maintenance, noncompliance with applicable specifications, airworthiness directives, or other approved data, the following or a similarly worded statement - “I certify that this aircraft has been inspected in accordance with (insert type) inspection and a list of discrepancies and unairworthy items dated (date) has been provided for the aircraft owner or operator.””

The key word in that string of text is the “needed maintenance, non compliance with applicable specifications, airworthiness directives or other approved data”. An A&P is allowed to do maintenance with the added benefit that the A&P’s signature is what allows the aircraft to return to service. If the maintenance requires a major repair/alteration, then an IA would be needed to return the aircraft to service.

As an owner that’s presented a discrepancy list that would result in a flunked annual, the smart thing to do in this situation is to make sure that your IA does not put the discrepancy list IN THE LOGBOOK. The discrepancy list is only required to be provided to the owner/operator as the FARs do not state that such a list must be included in a logbook entry.
On the other side of the coin, a smart IA would hold onto such a discrepancy list in case the FAA ever took up an interest in the maintenance history of the airplane. That being said, as a mechanic, I’m going to keep a detailed personal logbook of work that I’ve done so that in the event that the FAA takes up special interest in an airplane, I’ll be able to back up the logbook entries.

Mike Busch wrote an interesting article on the subject.

The IA is only needed for the initial inspection. He signs off certifying that He has done the Annual inspection. That is the Annual Inspection. Whether airworthy or not, the Annual inspection is complete, and current.

The list of discrepancies of items that make the plane unairworthy is given to the owner/operator and they can have any mechanic (non-IA) fix the issues. As long as the repairs are considered minor, or there are no STC's being incorporated (no-337) then there is no requirement for an IA to see that plane again.

As far as major repairs or STCs, the IA in only needed to inspect after the AP has done the work.

hotrod180 wrote:That stamp says it's been inspected but not that it is airworthy.
As a non-licensed mechanic owner, it seems to me that the IA would have to make another entry,
signing off the airplane as airworthy after the A&P corrected any discrepencies.

What's a "non licensed mechanic owner", exactly?

Tangogawd wrote:The IA is only needed for the initial inspection. He signs off certifying that He has done the Annual inspection. That is the Annual Inspection. Whether airworthy or not, the Annual inspection is complete, and current.

The list of discrepancies of items that make the plane unairworthy is given to the owner/operator and they can have any mechanic (non-IA) fix the issues. As long as the repairs are considered minor, or there are no STC's being incorporated (no-337) then there is no requirement for an IA to see that plane again.

As far as major repairs or STCs, the IA in only needed to inspect after the AP has done the work.

Truth [emoji1360]

Aryana wrote:

hotrod180 wrote:That stamp says it's been inspected but not that it is airworthy.
As a non-licensed mechanic owner, it seems to me that the IA would have to make another entry,
signing off the airplane as airworthy after the A&P corrected any discrepencies.

What's a "non licensed mechanic owner", exactly?

I would assume he meant an airplane owner that is not FAA-licensed as a mechanic. In other words, "most of us pilots / owners..."

Henny,

Appears to be significant thread drift...

I've owned 5 GA aircraft over the past 30 years. I spent 25 years in the AF and ANG all as single seat type of guy. I've been in the airline business since 2001. What does that say? It says I've been fortunate to have the best mechanics and maintenance folks around me to have been a part of my journey, I would not be here without them. My A&P is a dear friend and I've been with him for a long time.

There will be times in your career where owners/shop chiefs or whomever will ask you to cut a corner to save time or money..DONT! There is always a reasonable solution to any situation you may face. Don't let yourself ever be forced into a corner.

Find a mentor you can rely on as soon you can.. It may or may not be the first place you work, it may or may not be a fellow mechanic, seek someone who is wise and has great discern.

Be passionate about being the best A&P possible. Do the little things like, after you finish your work on the Beaver, sweep the shop floor, put the tools away, get the coffee ready for the next AM shift folks. No too be noticed but because it makes everyone better. Simple examples of team building. Call me old school. I'm not really that old but I sound like I am. Not trying to be preachy.

Develop a relationship with the pilots whom entrust their lives with your work. It's invaluable.

Every time I had the privilege to strap into a jet and my chief would help strap me in I would say "see you soon" as I had put my trust in his or her ability to take care of the jet I was going to fly and make it a personal affair for the both of us. Aviation is a personal affair especially in GA. I cherish the ability to participate. I hope this helps.

I'm grateful folks like yourself have stepped up to the rigors of being an A&P. Congratulations and WELL DONE!

MW

Draw your line in the sand now.

Only work for people who want quality.
Only work for people who will pay you what you are worth.


Say no.

Say no. Say no.

My example on this:

Did your previous mechanic complete this service bulletin? Oh yes.

Look at plane (wrapped in vinyl) - screws were covered in vinyl on the area required to be removed for the SB.

And the list continued.

My take on it.....there is an epidemic brewing of poorly maintained airplanes. Owners don't know what is right or they do not want to pay to have work done correctly. Mechanics are sloppy or they just do not know.

Tim

An iPAD works with disposable rubber gloves. Take pictures of everything and document graphically your work. There maybe questions later that only a photograph can answer:

Examples randomly selected from 100hour inspection:

Times 2 from Behindpropellors post above!

MW

My take on it.....there is an epidemic brewing of poorly maintained airplanes. Owners don't know what is right or they do not want to pay to have work done correctly. Mechanics are sloppy or they just do not know.

Tim[/quote]


This is very true! its unbelievable the shape some aircraft are in and still perform their job. Current 182a I re-annualed after it was done a month earlier after having steering problems is up to 20K in parts to get it really airworthy The list includes broken main landing gear ubolts, hole in the tubular engine mount from a metal control cable, engine mount to firewall rubber bushings worn out allowing the entire engine assembly to move against the airframe mounting holes almost destroying the airframe mounts, copper oil pressure line with a low pressure gyro hose under the panel connecting it to the oil pressure gauge, looked almost normal with the gyro vacuum hoses all being the same. This is supposed to me a two piece steel line with a bulkhead fitting passing through the firewall, not a piece of rubber hose split and used as a grommet with a new hole drilled in the firewall on a piece of copper line that was running from the flexible engine hose to the low pressure vacuum hose connected to the gauge. These discrepancies are some of the ones in the top 10 of unairworthy list on this particular aircraft.

Absolutely unacceptable dangerous items missed by a newly minted IA.

The trend of aircraft I have seen the last few years is like this one with the same owner using the same mechanic for 30 plus years then selling the aircraft to a new owner at a different airport and the first real annual finds these kinds of problems. The new owner is mad as hell at the situation and possibly at the new IA for finding these discrepancies. A good prebuy could have found some of these items, but is no substitute for a annual inspection by experienced mechanic on the particular model!

Best advice is like another poster said is to get a mentor and don't be afraid to say NO to any job you are approached with. Those type owners just have a sense to approach a new A&P and try to get the work done the way they want it done, not the way the regs say!

Rant off

Halestorm wrote:It’s perfectly acceptable for an IA to make an entry in the aircraft logs stating aircraft inspected IAW (blah blah) annual inspection with noted discrepancies and is unairworthy until such repairs made. At this point an A&P (or repair station) can return the airplane to service as long as they’re rated to perform the repairs and make a log entry, make sense?

In regards to beavers I worked 3 summers doing 1-2 100 inspections a night, super fun! 2 guys could knock out a good inspection with servicing and repairs in about 5 hours. The gray hairs always said about the beaver to concentrate on the engine and the tail because they took all the abuse on floats. There was a ton of time put into corrosion control as the machines were in the salt every day so that took up a lot of time. The float strut attach fittings were always trying to return to their natural state...

We ran fine wire plugs in the engines which worked great, they never fouled and the rear set only came out maybe every 400 hours. We had our own overhaul shop at the time and ran about 800-900 hours a year per airframe (8) and those engines were just great.

Our deHavilland machines were very reliable compared to the Cessna products, they’re just built better.

Makes perfect sense to me. Thanks!

We have three Beavers and don't fly nearly as much as a 135 operation, so we only do a couple of 100-hours a year. Our A&P typically takes 3-4 days to complete them. The airplanes have never been in salt water, so the airframes are pretty clean corrosion-wise. Our A&P runs massive spark plugs, but I honestly don't know if the fine wires have ever been tried. Covington is where we send the cores for overhaul, but I've heard rumors that they may be getting out of the radial business in the not-too-distant future...

An interesting note is that two of our three Beavers were bought directly from de Havilland and flown from the factory to our base on floats, where they have been their entire lives with no damage history. The first one didn't even come with wheel gear which had to be purchased later.

pilotryan wrote:Congratulations!!

By chance, did you take your practical tests with Tom at MCTC in Minneapolis yesterday? I thought I saw someone testing that looked like you. Regardless, awesome job!

Thanks Ryan. I did not test in the cities. I finished up school in Tulsa and used the examiner in Claremore, OK.

Thanks for the article link also. Always something to learn!

185Midwest wrote:Henny,

Appears to be significant thread drift...

I've owned 5 GA aircraft over the past 30 years. I spent 25 years in the AF and ANG all as single seat type of guy. I've been in the airline business since 2001. What does that say? It says I've been fortunate to have the best mechanics and maintenance folks around me to have been a part of my journey, I would not be here without them. My A&P is a dear friend and I've been with him for a long time.

There will be times in your career where owners/shop chiefs or whomever will ask you to cut a corner to save time or money..DONT! There is always a reasonable solution to any situation you may face. Don't let yourself ever be forced into a corner.

Find a mentor you can rely on as soon you can.. It may or may not be the first place you work, it may or may not be a fellow mechanic, seek someone who is wise and has great discern.

Be passionate about being the best A&P possible. Do the little things like, after you finish your work on the Beaver, sweep the shop floor, put the tools away, get the coffee ready for the next AM shift folks. No too be noticed but because it makes everyone better. Simple examples of team building. Call me old school. I'm not really that old but I sound like I am. Not trying to be preachy.

Develop a relationship with the pilots whom entrust their lives with your work. It's invaluable.

Every time I had the privilege to strap into a jet and my chief would help strap me in I would say "see you soon" as I had put my trust in his or her ability to take care of the jet I was going to fly and make it a personal affair for the both of us. Aviation is a personal affair especially in GA. I cherish the ability to participate. I hope this helps.

I'm grateful folks like yourself have stepped up to the rigors of being an A&P. Congratulations and WELL DONE!

MW

Thanks for the great advice. I can totally relate as I spent 26 years in the Navy flying jets off carriers and have owned 3 taildraggers during that time. I have several folks I consider mentors, including our full-time IA at work and the IA who does the work on my 185. Both of them are by-the-book types and I have already learned a great deal from them.

At work, I have the benefit of being able to assist in the maintenance and also fly the airplanes, so making sure the machines are in the best shape possible is very important for my fellow pilots and I, as well as all of our families.

I'm not a huge fan of motivational posters, but I think the one below rings pretty true...

FWIW there's a couple mechanic shops on my airport.
One is owned & operated by a guy who seems to pretty much be just a "parts changer".
That can get spendy.
Quite often things can be repaired or overhauled vs repaired.
IMHO a good mechanic knows the difference & will opt for the more cost-effective solution if that's what the customer wants.