Berk wrote:Yeah, Zane, that'd be great to be able to access this info quickly.

What I wonder though, is how would you find time to add & maintain it?

We would all add to it and maintain it...that's the way a Wiki works. I might start a "stub" of a topic, but those who feel knowledgeable and confident on a topic are free to add content. The hope is that we end up with a community-generated encyclopedia of backcountry flying. Discussion in the forums, more straightforward documentation-style information in the wiki.

mtv wrote:
Secondly, anything hung on a seat back adds weight. That equates to forward force upon deceleration, and more liklihood of harness failure, or your face decorating the instrument panel. Either one of those, and you WON'T get out of the airplane, probably.

IMTV

Mike,
does it actually make a difference if the increased weight is on the pilots body, as opposed to the back of the seat?
The increased mass is still going to be working against the seatbelts in the same manner. If your belt is going to fail from increased mass on the seat back, how does it not fail if it is on your body? Maybe i'm missing something here.
Thomas

Anyone remember the name of any of the pilot shops in Daleville? I haven't been there since the mid 90's.

dontlookdown wrote:Mike,
does it actually make a difference if the increased weight is on the pilots body, as opposed to the back of the seat?
The increased mass is still going to be working against the seatbelts in the same manner. If your belt is going to fail from increased mass on the seat back, how does it not fail if it is on your body? Maybe i'm missing something here.
Thomas

At first, it seemed like it shouldn't matter, but then I thought about the risks of having increased mass attached to the seat back.

A friend's wife was killed in a car accident a few months back when she was hit by a drunk driver head-on. She was driving a F250, he was driving a Nissan Frontier. Everyone else in her vehicle was ok. Her driver cockpit was intact. What killed her was the passenger directly behind her not having her shoulder harness on, and her body pushing forward on the driver's seatback, doubling her over hard into her shoulder harness and the airbag.

It's one thing when it's just your own body weight, but additional weight on the seatback crushing you into your shoulder harness could be bad. Howerver, I think the amount of stuff in a small Camelbak style backpack wouldn't make that big a difference, if it's under ~ 10 lbs.

I use the Sterns nomex vest (http://www.ultimategear.com/nomflotfligv.html), but when you pose for a picture make sure you take it off because it makes you look fat with all the stuff in the pockets (that's me on the left).



It has 6 pockets in front (4 large, 2 small) and one huge pocket in back.

Tailwagger2000 wrote:Anyone remember the name of any of the pilot shops in Daleville? I haven't been there since the mid 90's.

Ithink they were wings and the hanger. I think this is wings http://www.wings-aviation.com/catalog/
I believe tjis is the hanger http://www.thehangar.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=60

I think this is one of those things that everyone is going to have to decide for themselves what to do for an emergency kit.

You could think about a crash situation in a remote area like this.

1- Get help coming. This can be with a 406mhz PLB, 121.5 ELT, handheld com with a cheep GPS to communicate your Lat/Log, etc.

2- Stop anything that is going to kill you while waiting for help to arrive. Bleeding, shock, and/or freezing to death comes to mind.

I think the requirements for AK is a good list to go by with some/all of the electronics above added.

About the seat back thing. I don't know If having it there is a hazard. All I know I don't want it loosely flying around the cockpit. But I don't want it in the baggage area either. Maybe it would be better to minimize and get a vest. Maybe not.

For what it's worth this is what I carry in the Camelback backpack...

First Aid kit- (I really like this kit because each type of injury has it's own kit (bag) with instructions. If I'm in shock I think I could still find the appropriate kit and read the appropriate instructions.)
-Stop Bleeding/Shock kit
-Burns/Blisters/Abrasions kit
-CPR/Drowning/Chocking/First Aid Manual kit
-Fractures/Sprains kit
-Medications/Stings kit
-Wound (Cuts) Care kit
-Ace Bandage 3"

Pocket kit-
-Fresnel lens magnifier
-Signal mirror
-Spark-lite firestarter & tinder
-Whistle
-Compass
-Fishing kit
-Nylon thread & needle
-Scalpel blade
-Duct tape
-Aluminum foil
-Nylon cord
-Wire
-Safety pins
-Pencil & paper
-Survival instructions

Fire kit-
-Windproof lighter
-Magnesium firestarter
-Normal waterproof matches
-REI Stormproof matches
-Wetfire tinder

Tool Kit-
-Leatherman Wave multitool
-Crescent wrench
-Safetywire
-Flashlight/mirror/magnifier/compass/whistle multitool
-Batteryless flashlight
-550 cord
-6" fixed blade knife
-Sparkplug/fuel injector wenches

Food/Water kit-
-3L water
-Water filter
-Peanut butter 18oz (100 calories per Tbsp)

Shelter kit-
-Space Blanket/Tarp 5'x7' 2 each
-Biv Sacks 3'x7' 4 each
-Rain ponchos 4 each
-Snow Claw shovel

Extras-
-GPS
-VHF handheld radio
-Strobe light

In the "camping gear" in the baggage area lives
-Axe (very sharp, no problem cutting down a tree)
-1gal water in freezable packets
-Bug headnets 4 each
-Plane covers
-Wool Blankets 4each
-Avgas burning stove in 2qt pot

BTW most items were bought at Prepared Pilot.

-Todd Giencke

I know that flares have already been discussed. I carry them because I have them available to carry. Anyway, I just wanted to tell you about some cool flares that I got my hands on while fighting wildland fires for the BLM.

They are Navy Pen flares. It has a small pen like launcher with a small cylinder that screws in the end. It sounds like a .30 cal rifle when it goes off. It is small and compact to carry. We used to use them for burning off sides of mountains or islands of unburned areas inside the the burned area. Lots of fun to play with. Aahhh...how fun it was to be 19 and allowed to play with fire.

I've seen a lot of good ideas in this post, but some of it seems extremely inpractical for the vast majority of pilots and flights.

People have made a big deal about being sure the vest is made out of Nomex. While it's theoretically a good idea, it's rather pointless unless the rest of your clothing is also Nomex. If that's the case you're probably wearing a flight suit and most of this stuff can be put in your pockets.

For a lot of reasons it's not realistic for most of us to try and emulate a military standard of readiness, not the least of which is that this is supposed to be fun. Flying around with a K-bar hanging off my survival vest simply doesn't make sense...I'm not flying in a combat zone and if you think about it, the chances of that big hunk of metal ending up inside your torso after a crash are at least as good as the chances you'll actually use it for anything. If we're really going to do this right we should all be wearing survival vests AND full nomex flight suits AND helmets AND floatation devices every time we turn the engine over.

I've been wearing a fishing vest for a long time, mostly because my plane is so small that I have to take everything out of my pants pockets if I want to get the door closed. I've found that with even a little weight in it the vest becomes very uncomfortable very quickly. If I tried to load my vest with everything recommended in previous posts, I can guarantee the vest would be off my body and laying behind the seat after the first fuel stop.

Right now I'm looking for a vest with fewer and smaller pockets...something I can put the absolute essentials in and nothing else. I'm thinking a PLB, cell phone, mirror, lighter and pocket knife. That way I know it will get worn every time. My guess (and it's nothing but a guess) is that the reason Sparky didn't have his vest with him is because it has too much crap in it and he got tired of wearing it.

A vest full of gear is uncomfortable, and most of us will never use any of this stuff. Human nature being what it is, the vest will stop getting worn. My advice regarding the survival vest is to keep it simple, light and tight. Put the rest of your gear in the back of the plane and adjust your habits according to how much risk any given flight is exposing you to.

Ravi- You might want to look at photographers vests, light weight, smaller pockets (for film). Might be getting harder to find with the digital revolution...but just a thought.

mtv wrote:Todd,

The rub there is these guys said, when they were just barely done crashing, JC said his right foot was hot, and Sparky said "We're on fire". They bailed out of the plane and said they only got a few feet from it before it went up.

It's going to take a LOT of presence of mind to grab that thing off your seat back on the way out.

Secondly, anything hung on a seat back adds weight. That equates to forward force upon deceleration, and more liklihood of harness failure, or your face decorating the instrument panel. Either one of those, and you WON'T get out of the airplane, probably.

I had a friend who took the approach you describe and died with the stuff still hanging on the seat back. This was a seaplane, though, but still...

MTV

But let's say you're wearing the vest but are killed/seriously injured in the crash and can't get out but your passenger can. That vest on you is of exactly zero value to your passenger as you burn up. Saw that happen too. It's a tough call and luck plays a part.

Nomex, while there is some thought that it isn't necessary for us GA types, the opposite is true for materials like nylon, Gore-tex etc. No you probably don't need Nomex, but for Gosh sake don't wrap yourself in plastic either. Stick with natural fibers, wool or cotton while not being fire proof, don't melt either. It's up to you, but I've seen survivors of a Black Hawk crash that had Gore-Tex on, they lived, but you don't want to look at them when you are eating.
While I can't speak for the man, I don't think weight of the vest is the reason Sparky wasn't wearing it. I think it was either complacency or this was an un planned flight. Why else would he have left his PLB with his wife?

I agree almost completely with RAVI on this, and I've said it before. If you make this stuff uncomfortable enough, you won't wear it. The day those two crashed it was 85 degrees. Think about why they weren't wearing their vests. Sparky's PLB was IN a very large, very bulky VEST, hanging on the seatback of his airplane.

I agree with AH64 on fabrics as well. If you want to try to swath yourself in Nomex, get military or custom made flight suits--they are expensive, and not very comfortable, though you can get custom ones in lighter Nomex material.

But, just DON'T wear nylon, rayon, or other synthetic fibers if you can avoid it. Cotton will protect you nearly as well in a flash fire as Nomex. Nylon will go up like a torch and embed itself in your skin.

Let me tell a story, and my apologies if this sounds off track:

One winter, the Kodiak Coast Guard FLying Club was able to park all our aircraft (four) inside a C-130 hangar-heated, instead of tied outside. CG had lost a Herc in an accident. We moved the airplanes inside. Huge hangar doors, BUT equipped with big electric motors to open them for you, absolutely a piece of cake. At the end of a flight, each airplane had to be bonded to the hangar floor with a cable, and a drip can had to be hung under each fuel vent.

Flying activity dropped to near zero. Me and another fellow were the only ones flying. Couldn't figure it out, and it went for almost three months, weather was NOT a factor.

One guy suggested we put the planes outside again and see what happened. We did and flight activity went right back up to normal levels.

Just that little bit of extra hassle kept people from flying.

Flying for many of us is fun and transportation. Don't make it any more painful or uncomfortable than is necessary.

You don't need a full medical kit carried in your vest, nor do you need all sorts of appliances. I've siwashed at 48 below zero, and didn't use but about four items in my vest and a couple from the plane.

You can't plan for every single contingency. I would argue that not many if ANY on this list carries all that stuff in their cars, and you're a lot more likely to need it there than in your plane, if not for you, for others.

Keep it light, stick to the basics. As I noted before:

A GOOD knife

THree ways to start a fire: Lifeboat matches or match safe, blast match, Bic lighter

Parachute cord-25 feet or 50

Signal mirror-THAT alone would have got these guys out 20 hours earlier.

PLB

Some BASIC trauma stuff--blood stopper powder, blood stopper bandage

Smoke canisters-tiny

a lightweight mylar "space" blanket.

A multi tool

I know--it doesn't cost a fortune, you can buy most of the stuff at Cabela's. It won't cover EVERY contingency.

You can't, and never will.

Keep it simple, keep it light and ENJOY flying.

Oh, yeah, I forgot the IPOD .

MTV

mtv wrote:I've siwashed at 48 below zero, and didn't use but about four items in my vest and a couple from the plane.

What does that word mean? Or is it a typo?

Zane,

To "siwash" in northern jargon is to sleep out without shelter, to live off the land. Apparently, it derives from the French trappers' reference to Natives in the north.

Nowadays, I suppose, to point that term at a person (ie: use as an adjective or noun) would be considered discriminitory, but in the context I used it, as in Jack London's writings, it's used as a verb, to describe the act of camping without shelter, generally in winter, as no doubt many northern Natives did for hundreds of years.

Mike

One of the more comfortable and cost effective means to a vest is to hunt the garage sales and find a fly fishing vest. Lots of pockets, usually well vented and cut high avoiding the lap belt. All the basics can be kept easily and worn for extented periods.

I'm a float pilot and a glasses wearer, so one of the items I carry in my Switlik air crew life vest (which I ALWAYS wear when float flying) is a spare pair of glasses in a ridged case. I would hate to think how handicapped I would be if I couldn't see properly after the crash - for me, its right up there with shelter and warmth.

pilotboy99 wrote:I'm a float pilot and a glasses wearer, so one of the items I carry in my Switlik air crew life vest (which I ALWAYS wear when float flying) is a spare pair of glasses in a ridged case. I would hate to think how handicapped I would be if I couldn't see properly after the crash - for me, its right up there with shelter and warmth.

That's a REALLY good point for all glasses wearing pilots out there.

MTV

Nowadays, I suppose, to point that term at a person (ie: use as an adjective or noun) would be considered discriminatory

Yep, you can't be too careful these days...Jeremy Clarkson got caught reciting the "eeny, meeny, miney, mo" nursery rhyme to decide which seat of the Ferrari to sit in and look what happened to him!

On the west coast, siwash was a term we used in high-lead logging, to indicate a (minor) change in direction of a line, usually around a tree or a stump. Also heard in reference to specific Indians (we all worked and partied together) to suggest they may not be "full blood". Like reading "huckleberry finn", you had no idea that a common term would become offensive 50 years later. Up north I heard it used the same as referenced here - overnighting without a lot of gear.

It's in Chinook, the local language in the Pacific Northwest:
Siwash — (SAI-wash) properly a First Nations man, but sometimes used for women as well. Nowadays considered extremely derogatory but still in use, typically with the connotation of "drunken no-good Indian". Historically it did not necessarily have this connotation and was the generic term for Natives to the point where some writers thought there was a "Siwash tribe" in the region. The origin of the word is from the French sauvage. When pronounced Sa-WASH, with the rhythm of the original French, it is used by modern speakers of the Chinook Jargon in Grand Ronde, Oregon with the context of meaning a Native American, or as an adjective connoting connection to same (the SAI-wash pronunciation is considered offensive in Grand Ronde)

Bonanza Man wrote:

mtv wrote:Todd,

The rub there is these guys said, when they were just barely done crashing, JC said his right foot was hot, and Sparky said "We're on fire". They bailed out of the plane and said they only got a few feet from it before it went up.

It's going to take a LOT of presence of mind to grab that thing off your seat back on the way out.

Secondly, anything hung on a seat back adds weight. That equates to forward force upon deceleration, and more liklihood of harness failure, or your face decorating the instrument panel. Either one of those, and you WON'T get out of the airplane, probably.

I had a friend who took the approach you describe and died with the stuff still hanging on the seat back. This was a seaplane, though, but still...

MTV

But let's say you're wearing the vest but are killed/seriously injured in the crash and can't get out but your passenger can. That vest on you is of exactly zero value to your passenger as you burn up. Saw that happen too. It's a tough call and luck plays a part.

Absolutely. But if you want absolute safety, don't fly.

And, actually, my earlier post regarding a bag hung on a seat back wasn't made real clear by me.

First, as my later post suggested, wear a vest or something with pockets on your person, but keep it simple! All that stuff need not weigh just a couple pounds. That isn't going to significantly add to the forces applied in an accident.

A "bug out bag" on the other hand, at least the one my friend had in mind, weighs a LOT more than a simple vest with just the basics.

By all means, carry a larger kit in the event you CAN get to it. I've used mine more than a few times due to weather delays, mechanicals, and a broken airplane.

But the point is, when something REALLY bad happens, the stuff you have on your person is your survival gear. That stuff in the baggage compartment is camping gear.

MTV