I would like some wisdom from others that have experience buying vintage aircraft. In particular post war champs, chiefs, cubs, taylorcraft and the like.
I have spent well over a year searching for a plane and have traveled around the PNW looking at many examples. I have looked at planes in the 12-22k range and they all seem to have something wrong with them. I found an aeronca that seemed to me to be in very good condition, with recent fabric, lower TSMOH and in overall good condition. I then asked an A&P to look it over for me and he came up with a list of problems. Such as bad logs, missing 337's and shady sign off's. In the end he recommended I not purchase the plane.
In another example I looked at a t-cart that was out of annual and not yet up to date on the strut AD's. I was told that at the seller's asking price it needed too much work and to again pass on it.
It seems to me that a "perfect" plane doesn't really exist. Do I need to start looking for planes priced much higher or be more flexible? I am not in a hurry, just getting a little discouraged.
Anyone have any good leads in the PNW? I am enjoying learning a lot about these neat little classics.
Thanks,
David
airplane buying experiences
Sat Sep 08, 2012 6:05 pm
Sat Sep 08, 2012 6:21 pm
Re: airplane buying experiences
More money doesn't always equate to better airplanes. Plenty of high dollar pigs wearing lipstick out there. Best bet is forums like this, and aircraft specific groups, where guys will look out for you, and you can get good leads as things get ready to come on the market.
Gump
Gump
Sat Sep 08, 2012 7:01 pm
Re: airplane buying experiences
I did get a lead on a local plane just by asking around and will continue to do so. One of the things the A&P showed me was an AD that was signed off at the recent annual as previously complied with (PCW), but no where in the logs was their any mention of the Spar AD being every looked at. That would be a good use of lip stick.
Sat Sep 08, 2012 8:01 pm
Re: airplane buying experiences
Hey David, I was just at Independence airport (7S5) and there was a nice looking Experimental PA-16 for sale. I dont know price or anything else about it, but it looked pretty clean from the outside.
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Sat Sep 08, 2012 8:06 pm
Re: airplane buying experiences
I would consider a Taylorcraft a good bang for your buck. the only A.D they have is for the struts I flew an f19 for over 15 years and never had any problems whatsoever outside of wear and tear tires oil etc. there are typically no ghosts in the closet when it comes to a Taylorcraft if the engine checks out and doesn't burn oil etc. and the fabric is good your usually good to go . and the prices are typically quite a bit lower than the piper class.
I always say it's not a super cub but pretty close pm me if need some more Tcraft bs
I always say it's not a super cub but pretty close pm me if need some more Tcraft bs
shawn coleman
2202T
tcraft f-22
2202T
tcraft f-22
Sun Sep 09, 2012 5:49 am
Re: airplane buying experiences
You have to realize these are all very old machines, this lots of time to acquire glitches.
First thing I would suggest is that if you are looking for one of these in the 12 to22 k price range, you are going to find nothing but projects.
At that price range, I'm not at all surprised that you're finding these kinds of problems. There MAY be a good one out there in that range, but if so, it won't last long.
Adjust your price range upwards to a max of $30 K and I think you'll find a lot of really ready to fly airplanes with clean logs.
Above all, sounds like your mechanic has his act together, so keep listening to him.
FWIW
MTV
First thing I would suggest is that if you are looking for one of these in the 12 to22 k price range, you are going to find nothing but projects.
At that price range, I'm not at all surprised that you're finding these kinds of problems. There MAY be a good one out there in that range, but if so, it won't last long.
Adjust your price range upwards to a max of $30 K and I think you'll find a lot of really ready to fly airplanes with clean logs.
Above all, sounds like your mechanic has his act together, so keep listening to him.
FWIW
MTV
Sun Sep 09, 2012 6:50 am
Re: airplane buying experiences
MTV is pretty much spot on. Too many people out there looking to buy have fallen for the falicy that everyone selling their planes NEEDS to sell right now and will do so at bargain basement prices. Also, buyers are thinking they can find the recently restored award winner for $0.10 on the dollar. Sorry, but most guys that have time and money invested in the nice planes will not be 'given away'. You will pay for what you get. At the price you are stating, you are not going to get a cream puff. Lots of projects and planes needing a little work in that price range but to get one free of any defect you are going to pay for it. Granted there is the occasional deal of the guy needing to get out but as was stated...those planes are sold immediately.
I have a plane listed for sale at a fair price and 99% of the guys looking are tire kickers or guys thinking they are going to get that 'deal'. I am upfront about its condition and that it isn't perfect. They still seem to think that it will be a perfect and then try to dicker price because it has a patch or scratch. If it were perfect it would be priced accordingly. What I am trying to say is the majority of planes out there for sale are priced close to their actual value. To get one that is perfect you will pay for it. Either spend more money upfront or buy the one that has its small issues.....fly the snot out of it and fix those issues as time and money are available. I have bought planes both ways, great shape needing nothing and ones that needed some work. They all cost about the same in the end.
Bang for buck in your price range I will have to agree with the others....hard to beat the Taylorcraft. Not sure why, but they can be had generally for less money that a Champ or J-3. A very nice Champ will run $25-30K with real nice ones more than that. J-3's are generally $2,500-5,000 more than the Champs in the same condition. The price range you stated is pushing it pretty low to find something nice. Especially the bottom end, for $12K you are not going to find much at all that does not need work. You might be able to find a 150/152 in fair condition for that price but I highly doubt you will find a Champ or J-3 that even flies priced that low.
There was a 'fair' condition Taylorcraft recently listed for $14-15K locally but other than being flyable it needed some TLC. Definitely nothing wrong with a flying project if that is all you can afford. That is how I started my flying addiction.
Good Luck with your search!!
I have a plane listed for sale at a fair price and 99% of the guys looking are tire kickers or guys thinking they are going to get that 'deal'. I am upfront about its condition and that it isn't perfect. They still seem to think that it will be a perfect and then try to dicker price because it has a patch or scratch. If it were perfect it would be priced accordingly. What I am trying to say is the majority of planes out there for sale are priced close to their actual value. To get one that is perfect you will pay for it. Either spend more money upfront or buy the one that has its small issues.....fly the snot out of it and fix those issues as time and money are available. I have bought planes both ways, great shape needing nothing and ones that needed some work. They all cost about the same in the end.
Bang for buck in your price range I will have to agree with the others....hard to beat the Taylorcraft. Not sure why, but they can be had generally for less money that a Champ or J-3. A very nice Champ will run $25-30K with real nice ones more than that. J-3's are generally $2,500-5,000 more than the Champs in the same condition. The price range you stated is pushing it pretty low to find something nice. Especially the bottom end, for $12K you are not going to find much at all that does not need work. You might be able to find a 150/152 in fair condition for that price but I highly doubt you will find a Champ or J-3 that even flies priced that low.
There was a 'fair' condition Taylorcraft recently listed for $14-15K locally but other than being flyable it needed some TLC. Definitely nothing wrong with a flying project if that is all you can afford. That is how I started my flying addiction.
Good Luck with your search!!
Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:13 am
Re: airplane buying experiences
I've sold three airplanes for friends in the last year. Two J-3's and a PA-20.
All were priced fairly, all close to $30,000 and all sold between 5 days
And 3 weeks. You get what you pay for. I maintained all three and none
Had any issues on pre-buy.
Dave
All were priced fairly, all close to $30,000 and all sold between 5 days
And 3 weeks. You get what you pay for. I maintained all three and none
Had any issues on pre-buy.
Dave
Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:23 am
Re: airplane buying experiences
Are you dead set on a champ, chief, cub, or T-craft, like maybe trying to stay within LSA/sport pilot parameters? Keep in mind the AOPA/EAA proposal for a medical certificate waiver for non-commercial flying of under-180hp airplanes, if it passes (keep your fingers crossed) you could expand your horizons a bit.
Clippwagon on this site has what looks like a very nice Piper PA-16 Clipper for sale in Oregon, & he's knocked the price down from $25K to 21.5. That sure sounds like it's worth a look.
Some stuff knocks the value down some, but does not necesarily make the airplane unworthy. The FAA should have copies of any 337's filed. AD's can be brought up to date. Shady logbook entries can be verified or redone. New logbooks can be started. No matter what you buy, there's gonna be some shaking down of both the airplane & the paperwork the first couple of years.
If you want perfection buy a freshly-rebuilt airplane, or buy a beater & have it rebuilt. Or buy new. Like I told a friend of mine, "$20K airplane" and "perfect" are generally mutually exclusive. But $20K can get you "good enough".
Clippwagon on this site has what looks like a very nice Piper PA-16 Clipper for sale in Oregon, & he's knocked the price down from $25K to 21.5. That sure sounds like it's worth a look.
Some stuff knocks the value down some, but does not necesarily make the airplane unworthy. The FAA should have copies of any 337's filed. AD's can be brought up to date. Shady logbook entries can be verified or redone. New logbooks can be started. No matter what you buy, there's gonna be some shaking down of both the airplane & the paperwork the first couple of years.
If you want perfection buy a freshly-rebuilt airplane, or buy a beater & have it rebuilt. Or buy new. Like I told a friend of mine, "$20K airplane" and "perfect" are generally mutually exclusive. But $20K can get you "good enough".
Cessna Skywagon -- accept no substitute!
Sun Sep 09, 2012 9:17 am
Re: airplane buying experiences
Yes, BUT, pay that $20 K purchase price, then pay an IA to research AD's, maybe comply with a few, submit 337s for missing ones (and its getting harder and harder to get field approvals) etc, etc, and you're paying an IA shop time (or you should be) to do the paperwork that should have been done in the first place.
THEN, you're going to have to pay that mechanic to fix at least some of the reason that airplane sold for $20 K in the first place.
Most sellers are totally unrealistic about the "price" of good logbooks and paperwork.
MTV
THEN, you're going to have to pay that mechanic to fix at least some of the reason that airplane sold for $20 K in the first place.
Most sellers are totally unrealistic about the "price" of good logbooks and paperwork.
MTV
Sun Sep 09, 2012 11:46 am
Re: airplane buying experiences
I have seen beautiful tcrafts/chiefs for sale under 20k, some with c-85s. I don't think you'll find a good champ or cub under 25-30k, though. There are plenty of cubs in the 30s that also have terrible logs, so increasing your price range isn't going to change that. I'm sure you can find something good in your price range. You should check out taylorcraft.org.
1940 BC-65 with some mods.
1946 J3C-85
1946 J3C-85
Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:18 pm
Re: airplane buying experiences
A good rule of thumb is that you will probably spend as much as you bought the plane for on maintenance and ironing out old glitches/getting rid of gremlins the first year/years. Once that's done, then the operating costs will go down and you've crossed the hump.
Adam - Transplanted Euro guy with legal papers and licenses. JAA and FAA PPL ASEL AMEL, Aerostar and Turbo Commander 680V
Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:47 pm
Re: airplane buying experiences
hotrod150 wrote:Are you dead set on a champ, chief, cub, or T-craft, like maybe trying to stay within LSA/sport pilot parameters? Keep in mind the AOPA/EAA proposal for a medical certificate waiver for non-commercial flying of under-180hp airplanes, if it passes (keep your fingers crossed) you could expand your horizons a bit.
Clippwagon on this site has what looks like a very nice Piper PA-16 Clipper for sale in Oregon, & he's knocked the price down from $25K to 21.5. That sure sounds like it's worth a look.
Some stuff knocks the value down some, but does not necesarily make the airplane unworthy. The FAA should have copies of any 337's filed. AD's can be brought up to date. Shady logbook entries can be verified or redone. New logbooks can be started. No matter what you buy, there's gonna be some shaking down of both the airplane & the paperwork the first couple of years.
If you want perfection buy a freshly-rebuilt airplane, or buy a beater & have it rebuilt. Or buy new. Like I told a friend of mine, "$20K airplane" and "perfect" are generally mutually exclusive. But $20K can get you "good enough".
Thanks for the plug Hotrod. Perfect it is not, but it is in really good shape and I'm an open book with nothing to hide. It's difficult to find any airplane (let alone a tube and fabric bird) pushing the 50+ year mark without a history. That's part of what make them unique and cool! And to add a cliche' to the thread, you know what they say " the purchase price is the cheapest part of owning an airplane." That being said, there are airplanes out there (mine included) that are turn key without any major needs and are also relatively inexpensive to fly and maintain. Do your homework, have an idea of what you're willing to "put up with" and good luck in your search!
CW
- clippwagon offline
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Sun Sep 09, 2012 2:00 pm
Re: airplane buying experiences
hotrod150 wrote: Keep in mind the AOPA/EAA proposal for a medical certificate waiver for non-commercial flying of under-180hp airplanes, if it passes (keep your fingers crossed) you could expand your horizons a bit.
Along these same lines, I bought a 701 in 2001 before the sport pilot rule took effect. It gained in value by 25% after the rule came in and I resold in 2006. I am predicting that if/when the medical waiver for 180 hp four pax comes in the qualifying older sport pilot aircraft values will drop some and the 180 hp four pax values will pick up their loss. If you are a betting man you might go the four pax route ahead of the rush and buy some built in appreciation, or by waiting pick up a better buy on the older Tcrate/Champ you might be considering. As a possible unforseen consequence of the rule we could see another drop in the numbers of future tailwheel operators as people stay in the comfort zone of the 172 they trained in rather than retrain for the old tailwheel sport pilots.
Lynn Sanderson (Dirtstrip) passed away from natural causes in May 2013. He was a great contributor and will be missed dearly.
Sun Sep 09, 2012 3:26 pm
Re: airplane buying experiences
I should have said that thus far I have looked at 65 hp Taylorcraft's, Aeronca Chiefs and a Piper J4. I do realize that the champs and J3 will require much more money. Also that planes with 85 hp and or electric start also bring a premium.
What about planes that have been modified without the proper STC's. I looked at plane that had a skylight, spin on oil filter and maule tail wheel. Would I eventually have to track down and purchase the proper STC's
I am not set on LSA planes as I am young and healthy. I just like the construction, design and simplicity. They are also the planes that my Dad so fondly talked about.
Thanks everyone for the discussion and insight.
David
What about planes that have been modified without the proper STC's. I looked at plane that had a skylight, spin on oil filter and maule tail wheel. Would I eventually have to track down and purchase the proper STC's
I am not set on LSA planes as I am young and healthy. I just like the construction, design and simplicity. They are also the planes that my Dad so fondly talked about.
Thanks everyone for the discussion and insight.
David
hotrod150 wrote:Are you dead set on a champ, chief, cub, or T-craft, like maybe trying to stay within LSA/sport pilot parameters? Keep in mind the AOPA/EAA proposal for a medical certificate waiver for non-commercial flying of under-180hp airplanes, if it passes (keep your fingers crossed) you could expand your horizons a bit.
Clippwagon on this site has what looks like a very nice Piper PA-16 Clipper for sale in Oregon, & he's knocked the price down from $25K to 21.5. That sure sounds like it's worth a look.
Some stuff knocks the value down some, but does not necesarily make the airplane unworthy. The FAA should have copies of any 337's filed. AD's can be brought up to date. Shady logbook entries can be verified or redone. New logbooks can be started. No matter what you buy, there's gonna be some shaking down of both the airplane & the paperwork the first couple of years.
If you want perfection buy a freshly-rebuilt airplane, or buy a beater & have it rebuilt. Or buy new. Like I told a friend of mine, "$20K airplane" and "perfect" are generally mutually exclusive. But $20K can get you "good enough".
Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:39 pm
Re: airplane buying experiences
I just saw this thread and thought someone hi-jacked my account.
I am David B. and I have a Champ, and I used to live in Oregon.
Welcome to BCP.
D.
I am David B. and I have a Champ, and I used to live in Oregon.
Welcome to BCP.
D.
Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:56 am
Re: airplane buying experiences
Since flying has gotten more expensive as of late and some folks have found their disposable income is not what it used to be, the price of some planes has come down. My experience in the maintenance side has been one of slight amusement. Many of the distress sales have been on aircraft that have sat around for a while while their owner has had some form of financial meltdown. Things may have been wrong that they ignored, or developed while they sat, like corrosion.
As an illustration, one of my guys decided to leap upon a smoking deal on a 150. Needed paint and some TLC, near as he could tell. He didn't look too closely at the engine, it ran so he was satisfied. Much to his dismay, he flies it to the shop to work on it after hours. Drains the oil and cuts the filter, only to discover he actually bought a rare metal mine version of the 150. So now he owns a 150 with an overhauled engine, new cylinders and fresh paint. At near the price he would have paid for a decent working one that didn't eat up all his spare time and credibility with his wife.
So inspect carefully, airframe, engine and the paperwork. We have had two aircraft pass through the shop this year that didn't have valid airworthiness certificates (both smoking deals, or so they thought). One was bogus, the other didn't exist (nor the data plate on the airframe for that matter). So start with the registration database and ensure it is current, as far as the Oklahoma City computer system is concerned. DAR's are expensive.
As an illustration, one of my guys decided to leap upon a smoking deal on a 150. Needed paint and some TLC, near as he could tell. He didn't look too closely at the engine, it ran so he was satisfied. Much to his dismay, he flies it to the shop to work on it after hours. Drains the oil and cuts the filter, only to discover he actually bought a rare metal mine version of the 150. So now he owns a 150 with an overhauled engine, new cylinders and fresh paint. At near the price he would have paid for a decent working one that didn't eat up all his spare time and credibility with his wife.
So inspect carefully, airframe, engine and the paperwork. We have had two aircraft pass through the shop this year that didn't have valid airworthiness certificates (both smoking deals, or so they thought). One was bogus, the other didn't exist (nor the data plate on the airframe for that matter). So start with the registration database and ensure it is current, as far as the Oklahoma City computer system is concerned. DAR's are expensive.
Mon Sep 10, 2012 10:03 am
Re: airplane buying experiences
If they David B's wish to change their usernames to avoid confusion, PM me with your desired new username. I usually recommend against actual personal identifying information being used for your username.
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Mon Sep 10, 2012 10:30 am
Re: airplane buying experiences
David:
Have you looked at the PA 16 advertised on this website? Should look it up.
Don't know the airplane and this is not an endorsement, but looks in like it is in good shape.
Don't change your approach. Take your time and the right fit will eventually come.
Regards, Larry
Have you looked at the PA 16 advertised on this website? Should look it up.
Don't know the airplane and this is not an endorsement, but looks in like it is in good shape.
Don't change your approach. Take your time and the right fit will eventually come.
Regards, Larry
Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 pm
Re: airplane buying experiences
88H wrote:David:
Have you looked at the PA 16 advertised on this website? Should look it up.
Don't know the airplane and this is not an endorsement, but looks in like it is in good shape.
Don't change your approach. Take your time and the right fit will eventually come.
Regards, Larry
http://www.backcountrypilot.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=10404
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