Looks like one fatality during a wheels down water landing.

https://www.ktvz.com/news/plane-crashes ... 1088470139

Best wishes to all involved.

Damn! Another......

MTV

Sounds like the engine wasn't making power on takeoff From the airport, and they weren't able to get the gear up before trying to put it down on the river.

He just had the floats installed within the past month or so

Icon A5 just tried a landing with the gear down in a lake near Kelowna, BC. Flipped, but both got out ok. I flew amphibs for years, always worried about the gear being in the right place for the surface. Even confirming switch position isn't enough, after a friend flipped his when the breaker popped on the hydraulic pump.

https://livestream.com/accounts/21058359/events/8729054/videos/192979812/player?width=640&height=360&enableInfo=true&defaultDrawer=&autoPlay=false&mute=false

1:1 Scale wrote:Sounds like the engine wasn't making power on takeoff From the airport, and they weren't able to get the gear up before trying to put it down on the river.

He just had the floats installed within the past month or so

So would a landing on rough terrain be better for a gear down landing?

Karmutzen wrote:Icon A5 just tried a landing with the gear down in a lake near Kelowna, BC. Flipped, but both got out ok. I flew amphibs for years, always worried about the gear being in the right place for the surface. Even confirming switch position isn't enough, after a friend flipped his when the breaker popped on the hydraulic pump.

https://livestream.com/accounts/21058359/events/8729054/videos/192979812/player?width=640&height=360&enableInfo=true&defaultDrawer=&autoPlay=false&mute=false

Man, Icon isn’t having the best media presence for this little airplane. Glad nobody was hurt here.

I still think people are relying far too much on lights and Bitching Betty’s to prevent this.

MTV

qmdv wrote:

1:1 Scale wrote:Sounds like the engine wasn't making power on takeoff From the airport, and they weren't able to get the gear up before trying to put it down on the river.

He just had the floats installed within the past month or so

So would a landing on rough terrain be better for a gear down landing?

Probably so, not in all cases, but in most.

Kurt

G44 wrote:

qmdv wrote:

1:1 Scale wrote:Sounds like the engine wasn't making power on takeoff From the airport, and they weren't able to get the gear up before trying to put it down on the river.

He just had the floats installed within the past month or so

So would a landing on rough terrain be better for a gear down landing?

Probably so, not in all cases, but in most.

Kurt

I have ZERO experience with floats, but I could see where, in some cases, the nose gear on amphibs could trip a plane up in the right terrain, like possibly the area south of the river they tried to put it down in: https://www.google.com/maps/@43.8661244,-121.4593421,962m/data=!3m1!1e3 It's my understanding that they tried to make a left turn to land upstream after the engine went south after departing 18.

Both pilots on board were CFII's, and the survivor had some float experience, but I don't know if he is a seaplane instructor or not. I know the deceased also just had some advanced training for one of his other planes. I'm certainly not going to question their decision, not being in their position, just wish it would've worked out better...

I’d still rather be on land, with gear down. Underwater egress can be very difficult.

Also, in amphib on takeoff, gear should come up as soon as airborne, no matter how long the runway.......positive rate, gear up.

Sad deal.

MTV

mtv wrote:I’d still rather be on land, with gear down. Underwater egress can be very difficult.

Also, in amphib on takeoff, gear should come up as soon as airborne, no matter how long the runway.......positive rate, gear up.

Sad deal.

MTV

Mike, I've always had it in my head that if I was going to ditch on a flat surface I would like the gear down but if I'm going to fly it into the side of a mountain I would leave the gear retracted to penetrate the trees more cleanly, just using the floats as crumple zones. Is that a hard rule for you-- if landing on land, gear down?

I have about 60 hours on my amphibs now and have had one time the gear wouldn't come down due to a short on the hydraulic pump wire. The hand pump sorted that one out. My system is switch first, then lights, then indicators on top of the float, then mirrors. Then I either say "Lights are brown, gear is down, I'm landing on the ground." or "Lights are blue and water is too."

I'm lucky I've never flown retract so I don't have muscle memory that says gear must always be down before a landing.

Allan

albravo wrote:

mtv wrote:I’d still rather be on land, with gear down. Underwater egress can be very difficult.

Also, in amphib on takeoff, gear should come up as soon as airborne, no matter how long the runway.......positive rate, gear up.

Sad deal.

MTV

Mike, I've always had it in my head that if I was going to ditch on a flat surface I would like the gear down but if I'm going to fly it into the side of a mountain I would leave the gear retracted to penetrate the trees more cleanly, just using the floats as crumple zones. Is that a hard rule for you-- if landing on land, gear down?

I have about 60 hours on my amphibs now and have had one time the gear wouldn't come down due to a short on the hydraulic pump wire. The hand pump sorted that one out. My system is switch first, then lights, then indicators on top of the float, then mirrors. Then I either say "Lights are brown, gear is down, I'm landing on the ground." or "Lights are blue and water is too."

I'm lucky I've never flown retract so I don't have muscle memory that says gear must always be down before a landing.

Allan

Allan,

I was taught to always do “Positive rate-Gear Up” in amphibs. Worst case scenario, engine pukes while still over runway, and you land gear up on runway.....probably minimal damage to floats, unlike a gear up in a wheel plane.

But, getting this done before you do ANYthing else on every flight MIGHT save your bacon some day when you forget to check gear prior to landing on water.

And, in just about every case I can think of, I’d rather land gear up off airport.

So, it’s a combination of building muscle (or brain) memory and maybe getting that gear up quick in the event of an engine problem soon after T/O

MTV

Caveat: I have not flown amphibs. My SES training was on straight floats, but there was some discussion about the dangers of landing an amphib on water with the gear down--usually a very violent nose over. In addition, I've seen several videos depicting what happens. Way too often it results in serious injury or death. The most poignant video I've seen is on the Air Safety Foundation's video library, called No Greater Burden. The father/pilot was distracted, failed to pull the gear up after departing an airport, and landed on a lake. His young son was killed when the airplane nosed over. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bjsxBEVl5o

One of the problems, though, is that for retractable land planes, the teaching is often not to retract the gear too soon, so that in the event of a glitch that results in a need to land again right away, the gear is still down. Consequently, when I transitioned to retracts, and later when I was teaching in retracts, the "rule" we followed was not to pull the gear up until it was not possible to land again on the remaining runway. In fact, when my airplane pard, who often pulled the gear up as soon as he lifted off, was taking some advanced training (can't recall where, but I'm thinking it was in Manhatten, Kansas), his instructor criticized him for raising the gear too soon--of course, he'd never "heard" me say it, although I said it almost every time we flew together. Over the years, I've felt that the real reason for not too quickly raising the gear was not maintaining the ability to land again, but simply that it's too easy, especially in high density altitude and heavy load situations, to misjudge that the airplane has indeed the ability to climb yet and could too easily settle down again.

In any event, then, someone accustomed to following that "rule" might have the "muscle memory" to wait to raise the gear, rather than to raise it as soon as there appears to be a positive rate of climb. I don't know where the term "muscle memory" comes from, but I do know that once a particular method is ingrained into one's psyche, it's really hard to change it. For instance, I've flown nothing but down and welded gear for the last 20 or so years, and yet it's only been recently that I stopped reaching for a gear lever on downwind.

So I can fully understand why the instant accident airplane might have had its gear down, although the only suitable landing surface was water. Additionally, when the SHTF, thinking isn't often what the pilot does, but instead he/she reacts based on past training and past experience. If these guys were fairly new to amphib flying, there might not have been any thoughts at all about getting the gear up.

Cary

Thanks Mike, I think I was unclear on my procedure when I wrote it. On take-off, I raise the gear as soon as I have positive rate but as I adjust the throttle, prop and flaps (sometimes mixture) it often takes me a while to circle back and confirm I have two blue lights, the gear window on the float shows in the water mode, and I can see in the mirrors there is no wheel protruding. I go through that same series of confirmations when I start downwind for a water landing.

My home strip is pretty short so it is a moot point whether leaving the gear down might make a landing straight ahead any easier. I'll be into the trees and using my floats as crumple zones. Besides, I'm not afraid of landing on a solid surface with the gear up-- I'd finally get that super short landing roll that I always strive for.

Good point by MTV. Drag is negligible with the gear hanging out, so I’ve become sloppy in retracting it at a particular point in the climb. Departure either 09 or 27 in Watson Lake, is over the lake. I believe I could retract the gear sooner than I have been. The cycle time for the gear seems very long. (Aerocet 3400) Think I’ll time it, and then analyze how much altitude I’m going to need if I hope to have the gear retracted before I reach the water in an engine failure scenario.

Very easy to imagine that the guys in OR got distracted working the engine problem and left retraction too late.

Discussed this with an old-timer who had the gear pump lever break on a Seabee just a few strokes into a retract after a runway takeoff. He burned some gas thinking it through and discussing with his engineer over the radio. Eventually decided that with the mains unlocked in mid-cycle retract they would just swing up on water contact, and so chose a water landing, close to shore. Also didn’t have flaps, which may have helped the high alpha angle on touchdown. An almighty splash and then he taxied to a nearby ramp, locked the wheels down, and came out of the water.