Too slow in a bank as long as you remain coordinated will normally result in the plane rolling wings pretty level and the nose dropping and your off and flying again. The kicker comes from the accelerated stall (being in the bank) and giving it a lot of top rudder trying to keep that damn critter in the side window as long as possible to get a better look at it. I think alot of it has to do with this condition as you come around on the down wind turn and everything working together turns you into a smoking hole in the ground.. The two I have been involved with / witnessed ended up with the holes in the ground on the upwind side of the animal being viewed..

NimpoCub wrote:

Zzz wrote:aircraft to slow too much, in a bank

THIS seems to be the common denominator, and too easy to do when distracted.
Obvious solution is to NOT be in a banked attitude when slow & lookin' at stuff.
If you fly low/slow in a straight/level attitude & get too slow, your nose will drop & you'll be flying again. GoodThing!

Graphic example of low altitude stall with tragic results.

Not sure if the popping was that left engine back firing or not. It looked like the prop was not spinning too fast just as the break occured. If he was fighting a bad engine you can bet that ball was not centered. That was not a typical stall and she rolled over and spun and is a classic example of the typical "moose hunter stall" and just how fast it happens. Hell, he was not even really banking much when she rolled over.

akavidflyer wrote:Too slow in a bank as long as you remain coordinated will normally result in the plane rolling wings pretty level and the nose dropping and your off and flying again. The kicker comes from the accelerated stall (being in the bank) and giving it a lot of top rudder trying to keep that damn critter in the side window as long as possible to get a better look at it. I think alot of it has to do with this condition as you come around on the down wind turn and everything working together turns you into a smoking hole in the ground.. The two I have been involved with / witnessed ended up with the holes in the ground on the upwind side of the animal being viewed..

That's fine....wind is one thing. But, Fer crying out loud, don't start the infamous "downwind turn" argument here. Sorry, but if your buddy flies that sloppy, he has no business in an airplane, let alone looking at stuff on the ground with an airplane.

But again, every one of these things I have information on, including one case where I literally flew past them within ten to fifteen minutes of when they crashed, occurred in DEAD CALM, cold air.

I'm talking about high time pilots who regularly and routinely do this for a living. The ones I've known range in flight experience from 10,000 hours up to almost 30,000 hours. And, every one of them had a great deal of experience at this kind of flying. Distracted?? I don't think so. Sure, we all get a little distracted, but I've flown this very mission for quite a few thousands of hours, and I've NEVER let myself get that distracted, nor that badly uncoordinated. And, again, I've poked and prodded every airplane I could get my hands on around in these corners to try to understand where the corners are. Distracted? You'd have to be sound asleep and on drugs not to notice how far out of kilter you have to get most airplanes in this mode to cause them to turn loose.

But, I have gotten into an uncommanded roll while circling in absolutely calm air and cold conditions. Again, talk to Art Warbelow from Fairbanks....he'll tell you how he got there, and Art is a VERY experienced super cub pilot.

Convince yourself that it requires uncoordinated flight to get there, and you are setting yourself up to get bit.

The good news is that the conditions have to be just exactly right for this to happen, and you have to encounter your own wake in a specific manner--I'm not sure what alignment is required, but.... Otherwise, there'd be smoking holes all over the country.

Believe what you like, but I simply don't buy the uncoordinated flight argument as a primary cause of these things.

MTV

I dont doubt that you have lots of experience pushing the edge, I am not arguing that fact or point LOL. But to make a statement that it dont happend just cause it didnt happen that way for you taint exactly right either. I can only comment on what I have personally done and experienced. I can only comment on the things taught me by a couple of crusty instructors that I can replicate every time, time and time again.

It is hard to fathom that high time guys can make a smoking hole in the ground, fer Pete's sake, they have been put in every imaginable situation probable thousands of times and every time thier "skill" got them home.... how about the argument that perhaps they got complacent because they had gotten away with it thousands of times and they were comfortable doing it yet this one time, some little something changed and it bit them. Perhaps it was hitting thier own wake. Maybe it was a micro burst. Yes, I have been flying along up here fat dumb and happy, not a cloud in the sky and not a burble in the air for the last hour, then suddenly find myself dropping at 4000' a min pinned to the shoulder straps.

When an accident happens, especially to someone we know, we really tend to think that there is no way that person could ahve done something so stupid, it had to be an outside cause, it had to be a structual failure, a freak of nature. However, we are all each and every one of us human and we are subject to and do pull stupid stunts and have brain farts. To say you ahve flown 30,000 hrs and never done something stupid is rediculous, the only difference is, you got away with it and lived to vow that you would never do it again. Some are not that lucky. For what ever reason, some a "charmed" and do stupid shit each and every flight and never get bit while others pay the ultimate price the first time they do something stupid. I know I have done some stupid shit and got bit and bent and I have tried to learn from each mistake. Most have not been repeated, but there are a few that have puckered me up more than once. so far I have been lucky enough to just get reminders of why we dont do that.

mtv wrote:

akavidflyer wrote:Too slow in a bank as long as you remain coordinated will normally result in the plane rolling wings pretty level and the nose dropping and your off and flying again. The kicker comes from the accelerated stall (being in the bank) and giving it a lot of top rudder trying to keep that damn critter in the side window as long as possible to get a better look at it. I think alot of it has to do with this condition as you come around on the down wind turn and everything working together turns you into a smoking hole in the ground.. The two I have been involved with / witnessed ended up with the holes in the ground on the upwind side of the animal being viewed..

That's fine....wind is one thing. But, Fer crying out loud, don't start the infamous "downwind turn" argument here. Sorry, but if your buddy flies that sloppy, he has no business in an airplane, let alone looking at stuff on the ground with an airplane.

But again, every one of these things I have information on, including one case where I literally flew past them within ten to fifteen minutes of when they crashed, occurred in DEAD CALM, cold air.

I'm talking about high time pilots who regularly and routinely do this for a living. The ones I've known range in flight experience from 10,000 hours up to almost 30,000 hours. And, every one of them had a great deal of experience at this kind of flying. Distracted?? I don't think so. Sure, we all get a little distracted, but I've flown this very mission for quite a few thousands of hours, and I've NEVER let myself get that distracted, nor that badly uncoordinated. And, again, I've poked and prodded every airplane I could get my hands on around in these corners to try to understand where the corners are. Distracted? You'd have to be sound asleep and on drugs not to notice how far out of kilter you have to get most airplanes in this mode to cause them to turn loose.

But, I have gotten into an uncommanded roll while circling in absolutely calm air and cold conditions. Again, talk to Art Warbelow from Fairbanks....he'll tell you how he got there, and Art is a VERY experienced super cub pilot.

Convince yourself that it requires uncoordinated flight to get there, and you are setting yourself up to get bit.

The good news is that the conditions have to be just exactly right for this to happen, and you have to encounter your own wake in a specific manner--I'm not sure what alignment is required, but.... Otherwise, there'd be smoking holes all over the country.

Believe what you like, but I simply don't buy the uncoordinated flight argument as a primary cause of these things.

MTV

So a pilot has 10000-30000 hours and gets into clear air turbulence, looses control and dies. Sad to work all those years and die right before retirement. So you are saying you can be doing everything ok and the plane goes out of control and you die. I believe it can happen.

I'm not a high time pilot. I am a high time structure fire fighter, 30 plus years. I have seen fires go wrong and guys who were doing the job correct die, it does happen. I think the same thing happens in flying. All you can do is the best you can, accept the risk, or get a desk job.

G'Day

OregonMaule wrote: All you can do is the best you can, accept the risk, or get a desk job.

G'Day

What, and die early of heart disease from stress and little exercise pushing paper around. No thanks! give me a fiery crash death any day. <------this emoticon on fire.

I read a very good and recent book on practical aerodynamics, "How To Fly Airplanes," by Robert Reser. He asks a very pertinent question of every pilot he meets: "What causes an airplane to stall?" Most of us answer something about the wing exceeding the critical angle of attack. Well, as he points out, that is wrong. The airplane is designed to fly, not to stall. It is designed so that it cannot stall stall itself. He always has to answer his own question: "the pilot by pulling back on the stick."