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Angle Of Attack indicators

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Sun Mar 02, 2014 4:43 pm

Re: Angle Of Attack indicators

M6RV6 wrote:RIP
I'm looking on my WILGA to put this thing to see what happens.
If I put it n the bottom of the extended Pitot tube, It would be about 12" in front of the wing leading edge?
Good Place?
Thanks in Advance


That would be a great place, with two provisions:
1) The pitot tube is ouside of the prop arc (I'm unfamiliar with the WILGA)
2) You have a method to run the wire from the probe to the display

Rip
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Sun Mar 02, 2014 11:31 pm

Re: Angle Of Attack indicators

rq3 wrote:
M6RV6 wrote:RIP
I'm looking on my WILGA to put this thing to see what happens.
If I put it n the bottom of the extended Pitot tube, It would be about 12" in front of the wing leading edge?
Good Place?
Thanks in Advance


That would be a great place, with two provisions:
1) The pitot tube is ouside of the prop arc (I'm unfamiliar with the WILGA)
2) You have a method to run the wire from the probe to the display

Rip

Is at the wingtip, can run the wire inside the wing, Measured today, will be 14" from leading edge
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Mon Mar 03, 2014 12:01 am

Re: Angle Of Attack indicators

Here's where I installed the CYA probe on my Husky:

Image

Image

The display is just to the left of the PowerFlarm (PCAS, ADS-B in, and glider anti-collision) at the center of glareshield.

I've flown with it twice now. Works amazingly well. Display increments precisely with no jittering. LEDs are bright and easy to see in peripheral vision (haven't tested auto-dimming night time feature yet).

bumper

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Mon Mar 03, 2014 5:51 am

Re: Angle Of Attack indicators

Hey Bumper, do you think we are going to let you off that easy with just two pictures? [-X

At an absolute *minimum* we need an inflight video demonstration of the unit on the Husky.

Now Git Movin!
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Mon Mar 03, 2014 11:22 am

Re: Angle Of Attack indicators

MAU MAU wrote:Hey Bumper, do you think we are going to let you off that easy with just two pictures? [-X

At an absolute *minimum* we need an inflight video demonstration of the unit on the Husky.

Now Git Movin!



Tough crowd, huh?! :shock:

Okay, I'll see what I can do. Did a third test flight yesterday. As it happens, with the CYA-100 upper set point between Vy and Vx, and the lower set point just above full flap power off stall, Vso 1.3 is right where the display changes from green to yellow, and Vso 1.1 is right where it changes from yellow to red. Cool! I really like this thing a lot - - and for less than 4 AMU small, it's an incredible value, IMHO.

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Wed Mar 05, 2014 12:11 am

Re: Angle Of Attack indicators

I tried to video of the CYA-100 angle of attack display in action today using my GoPro Black 3. Didn't work out all that well, certainly not worth posting.

There are several "issues" that make it difficult (at least for me). The CYA uses Pulse Width Modulation to control display LED brightness. This means the LED is turned on and off at high speed, faster than the eye can detect, so it looks to the eye like each LED is on steady. The longer the led is on during each cycle, the brighter it appears. This works great for the eyeball, but gets screwed up on the video due to the GoPro's shutter speed. The GoPro records the LED as flashing on and off - mostly off.

Another issue is the "narrow" light spectrum emitted by the LED. Looks nice and bright to the eye, but in this case not so much to the camera.

I'll try using a neutral density filter on the GoPro. I was using 720 - 60 setting. Any other suggestions welcome.

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Fri Mar 07, 2014 2:48 pm

Re: Angle Of Attack indicators

http://www.flyingmag.com/avionics-gear/ ... a-approval
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Thu Apr 03, 2014 5:26 pm

Re: Angle Of Attack indicators

Yesterday I received a letter of approval from the FAA for installation of the CYA-100 on certificated aircraft.

The letter is viewable on the "TECH" page of my website at: http://www.ackemma.com/index.html

Press releases are in the works. Thank you all, especially Bumper, who has not only purchased two, but provided invaluable manufacturing input!

Rip
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Sat Apr 05, 2014 12:09 am

Re: Angle Of Attack indicators

Things "airplane" tend to cost far more than logic would dictate. We become conditioned to expect that I guess, still it's a hard pill to swallow when some bit of avionics kit costs ten times as much as any similar device for most any other market.

The CYA-100 is a refreshing exception, selling at one quarter or less the price point of the rest of the pack. Frankly, being a little on the parsimonious side, the cost of other AOA indicators had me rationalizing that the ASI and my seat-of-my-pants were just fine, thank you. But Rip's pricing seemed most reasonable and so I decided to try one on the Husky. Liked it so much I purchased another for my Mooney.

I used to think there were but two reasonably priced items in aviation - cleco fasteners and bungee shock cords. Not sure how Rip does it, but you gotta add the CYA-100 to that short list of "How can they sell 'em for that?" items.

thanks,

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Sat Apr 05, 2014 8:39 am

Re: Angle Of Attack indicators

bumper wrote: Not sure how Rip does it, but you gotta add the CYA-100 to that short list of "How can they sell 'em for that?" items.

thanks,

bumper


Thanks, bumper. You've seen the device, and I tried to keep costs down during development. Although there are a few pricey integrated circuits buried inside, circuit boards and "jelly bean" parts are relatively inexpensive. And the more I buy, the cheaper they get. I didn't pay myself for the firmware development since it will be amortized through the years, and I kept reminding myself to "keep it simple". It's the bells and whistles that can make a product's costs rapidly go through the roof (voice alerts, multiple cal points, heated probes, etc).
After that, I tried to make every possible part serve serve multiple functions. The vane screw is also the bearing. The display potting compound is also the case and the optical filter. Looking at the Bendix King unit, I can imagine that they easily spent $100,000 just on the mold for the plastic case!

I just kept asking myself, "Does doing it this way get me where I want to be in the safest, cheapest, most elegant way possible?" and "If I do this, will this device last longer than I will?" If the answer to these questions was Yes, I was happy. Having developed products yourself, you know that strange feeling of certainty you get when something has been simplified to its bare essentials.

Rip
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Fri Apr 25, 2014 10:16 pm

Re: Angle Of Attack indicators

Has anyone installed there's and is willing to make a youtube video or similar of this thing in action?

Edit: Found one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4cd2GfgDPI

However, if someone has one of the audible alert I'd be good to hear.


Did the price go up? I can't find it for the pre-discount $395 price anywhere.
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Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:12 am

Re: Angle Of Attack indicators

Yup, it looks like the "introductory pricing" of $395 with a 10% discount on top of that is but a fond memory =D> . But then, I thought it was initially way underpriced and didn't expect that that deal to last. Aircraft Spruce has it listed for $625

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/i ... ey=1152945

One thing manufacturers seldom do is undercut pricing of their distributors. So I'd expect the $625 price will be the new norm. Frankly, I couldn't see how Rip (the owner/inventor) could make and sell them at the original price point and glean a reasonable amount of profit for his investment in time and effort. Especially so if he went "big time" with it and sold through distribution. (Rules of thumb: A product will typically retail for 5 times the cost of manufacturing - materials and labor. Retail price needs to be a minimum of 30% and up to 100% over wholesale.) Most retailers won't touch anything ('cept big ticket items) for less than 30%.

Considering that other purveyors of AOA's are selling their wares for 3 times as much on average, $625 still represents a good value IMO. And while the "smokin' good, unbelievably low intro price" is what moved me to buy one in the first place for my Husky, then another for the Mooney, I would happily pay the current price, as I think it's fair and still a good value. I prefer the CYA-100's vane type probe over the impact air probes of most of the other offerings. Installation and calibration is straightforward and easy. Accuracy and repeatablity is spot-on - - the CYA-100 works very well indeed.

bumper

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Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:14 am

Re: Angle Of Attack indicators

bumper wrote:Yup, it looks like the "introductory pricing" of $395 with a 10% discount on top of that is but a fond memory =D> . But then, I thought it was initially way underpriced and didn't expect that that deal to last. Aircraft Spruce has it listed for $625

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/i ... ey=1152945

One thing manufacturers seldom do is undercut pricing of their distributors. So I'd expect the $625 price will be the new norm. Frankly, I couldn't see how Rip (the owner/inventor) could make and sell them at the original price point and glean a reasonable amount of profit for his investment in time and effort. Especially so if he went "big time" with it and sold through distribution. (Rules of thumb: A product will typically retail for 5 times the cost of manufacturing - materials and labor. Retail price needs to be a minimum of 30% and up to 100% over wholesale.) Most retailers won't touch anything ('cept big ticket items) for less than 30%.

Considering that other purveyors of AOA's are selling their wares for 3 times as much on average, $625 still represents a good value IMO. And while the "smokin' good, unbelievably low intro price" is what moved me to buy one in the first place for my Husky, then another for the Mooney, I would happily pay the current price as I think it fair and still represents a good value. I prefer the CYA-100's vane type probe over the impact air probes of most of the other offerings. Installation and calibration is straightforward and easy. Accuracy and repeatablity is spot-on - - the CYA-100 works well indeed.

bumper
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Mon Apr 28, 2014 6:12 pm

Re: Angle Of Attack indicators

Bumper, I can't express my gratitude for your thoughts, wisdom, and purchases. And that goes for everyone who has had faith in my product, and for many who don't. All feedback, good, bad, or indifferent, is valuable.

I'm an engineer, not a marketing guy, and I was pretty shocked at the mark-up a catalog needed, and the pretty brutal view that the price was so low that it made the product appear "cheap" (as in low quality), and unmarketable. Hence the new price. I can see how engineers start to lose control of their own companies, but I'll try to keep a firm grip on the reins.

The fact that the CYA-100 is the only affordable FAA approved true AoA system for GA really, finally, set the price point. Several folks have called to ask where the original price disappeared to, and purchased anyway. Many thanks!

I'd also like to say that within the limits set by the FAA, the product evolves based on customer feedback and phone calls. A few folks have pulled the cable "backwards", and then soldered the pre-applied contacts to the probe (rather than clicked them into the display connector where they belong). My support philosophy (within reason): If you screw up, it's my fault.
The guilty parties got new connectors, fully populated with wire, at no charge. The latest connectors come fully populated with individually color-coded wires, so there are no tiny contacts to deal with, so hopefully that issue will go away. I do listen, and react quickly, to customer issues, and
thank everyone for their interest.

Fly Safe;
Rip
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Mon Apr 28, 2014 10:53 pm

Re: Angle Of Attack indicators

You are right, I just missed it. I looked back at my work computer today and it still had it up in one of my tabs for the old price from not that long ago. I thought I was loosing my mind at first. Even the paypal link still worked... but for better discretion I did not check out :). Thanks guys. It makes sense, and you know what they say -- you snooze, you loose.

On the other hand if someone ordered and changed their mind on installing it... PM me :).

I've been reading about these things since I got my license a few short months ago. There's been no shortage of publications pushing them, that's for sure. AOPA. FAA. Every aviation news source. I'm not certain their merits, as there's little data available at this point on their usefulness, but the theory is sound. It does certainly attempt to address what is today the statistically most dangerous part of trainer-GA flight. Interestingly enough, it seems to be a not so significant cause of danger for back country operations where weather and navigation play a larger role (stupidity/over gross/DA issues aside). At least, this is based on an unscientific NTSB database examination for the backcountry, but I tend to be over analytic in nature..

This one really does look like the best in its price range. Of course my analysis was pretty much from endless google searching and youtube video watching with little practical experience, but it came off as the only inexpensive one with professional and functional features. When I say this I mean not something that looks cool, or is intended to let you operate at the ragged edge of the performance envelope with pinpoint accuracy, but rather as a tool providing safety input for normal operations at a quick glance and with proactive alerts.. I agree with the "too cheap". It actually made me do more product research, but in the end it was just "nah, that's a great deal". Others may not be so analytic.

I wish you the best of success. This thread has certainly turned quite personal and supportive. Although for me, it does bring it from "If I buy it will you install it" to the AP/IA plane partner to "Hey guys, pony up a bit for your share". But everyone's a little different, and a pile of guys sharing a trainer shouldn't be your target market. I'm sure I'll be back though if I can convince the others to go for it).

As far as I can tell, there's only one thing this product desperately needs...
Someone to take a gopro or DSLR and make a better youtube/demonstration video.
Last edited by idair on Tue Apr 29, 2014 3:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Mon Apr 28, 2014 11:41 pm

Re: Angle Of Attack indicators

idair wrote:As far as I can tell, there's only one thing this product desperately needs...
Someone to take a gopro or DSLR and make a better youtube/demonstration video.



Idair,

I did try, but as posted earlier, the indicator lights didn't show up well due to their being "pulse width modulated" to auto adjust LED brightness. What this means is the lights are flashed on an off at high frequency, the amount of "on" time compared to "off" time is what determines brightness. Eyes can't detect this flashing, but the electronic shutter sure can. The video ends up looking like the lights are flashing on and off randomly, at least on my GoPro 3 Black. And due to the light wavelengths of the LEDs, which look bright and easy to see to my eyes, even in full sunlight, they sure didn't show up all that well in the video - disappointing. In fact, the video of the display looked so crappy I thought it would do more damage to sales than good. I did not try all the camera settings or my Canon DSLR, figured I'd leave the camera stuff to someone who knows what they're doing.

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Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:52 am

Re: Angle Of Attack indicators

idair wrote:As far as I can tell, there's only one thing this product desperately needs...
Someone to take a gopro or DSLR and make a better youtube/demonstration video.


Thanks! I agree, my photo skills are sorely lacking! I've got professional photographers and a videographer lined up (and I wish them luck!)
Rip
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Tue Apr 29, 2014 12:59 pm

Re: Angle Of Attack indicators

That's going to be difficult. If you have access to a DSLR or even better, camcorder, manually change the the shutter speed until you find one which is somewhat aligned with the LEDs even if sub-optimal for video. Probably not worth bothering though. Better let the professional crews he has coming figure it out. Usually you can salvage it if they are on a common timing / power source. Otherwise, it's mostly a compromise.

bumper wrote:
idair wrote:As far as I can tell, there's only one thing this product desperately needs...
Someone to take a gopro or DSLR and make a better youtube/demonstration video.



Idair,

I did try, but as posted earlier, the indicator lights didn't show up well due to their being "pulse width modulated" to auto adjust LED brightness. What this means is the lights are flashed on an off at high frequency, the amount of "on" time compared to "off" time is what determines brightness. Eyes can't detect this flashing, but the electronic shutter sure can. The video ends up looking like the lights are flashing on and off randomly, at least on my GoPro 3 Black. And due to the light wavelengths of the LEDs, which look bright and easy to see to my eyes, even in full sunlight, they sure didn't show up all that well in the video - disappointing. In fact, the video of the display looked so crappy I thought it would do more damage to sales than good. I did not try all the camera settings or my Canon DSLR, figured I'd leave the camera stuff to someone who knows what they're doing.

bumper
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Sun May 04, 2014 4:46 pm

Re: Angle Of Attack indicators

idair wrote:That's going to be difficult. If you have access to a DSLR or even better, camcorder, manually change the the shutter speed until you find one which is somewhat aligned with the LEDs even if sub-optimal for video. Probably not worth bothering though. Better let the professional crews he has coming figure it out. Usually you can salvage it if they are on a common timing / power source. Otherwise, it's mostly a compromise.


idair, exactly, I'm going to leave this one up to the pros. There's no way to get the camera shutter (scan rate) and the display on the same timing, since the display microprocessor makes it's own brightness decisions, and is "unobtainium" as far as the outside world is concerned.

For anyone who cares, the best results I've had involved spray painting a sheet of window glass with flat black Krylon, and then photographing the LED's from the REFLECTION off of the unpainted side of the glass. You'd think the same effect could be had with a neutral density filter, but it ain't so. There's a name for this "black mirror" technique, but darned if I can find it. There's a really neat tourist trap in Arizona that has a black mirror reflecting the Grand Canyon outside, and the visual contrast is startling. It's where I got the idea. Seems to work for LED's and Grand Canyons, but it's awfully inconvenient!

Rip
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Mon Aug 03, 2020 5:44 pm

Re: Angle Of Attack indicators

Been a long time since any PIREPS on the CYA-100. I once purchased this but resold before being able to install. Long story not directly related to product.

Would appreciate any use reviews. There should be quite a few units in the field by now. Is there a user group somewhere?

Best,

Tom
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