This is a (7) NM final to RWY (15). (not sure if Seneca called "miles out" or " final". )

3.9' (Mintues) @ 110 knots

At the end of the day the OP made a decision to extend his downwind and stuck with it. If that's what you felt you had to do to be safe, that's good. You're PIC, you're the one flying the plane. If someone wants to get all burnt because it took them five more minutes in the pattern, that's their problem.

hotrod180 wrote:

hpux735 wrote:

M6RV6 wrote:Seems to me as I remember the rules,(could be wrong) but who ever calls final first has the ROW whether ya like it or not!
Might piss someone off, but he called final!!

I can't tell if this is sarcasm. I've never heard that rule before. My understanding is that ROW is defined by who ever is lower, but you can't use that rule to cut in line. ......

Let's review FAR 91.113 right of way, in particular (g) landing.
"Aircraft, while on final approach to land or while landing, have right of way over other aircraft in flight.......
When two or more aircraft are approaching an airport for the purpose of landing, the aircraft at the lower altitude has the right of way, but it shall not take advantage of this rule to cut in front of another which is on final approach to land or to overtake that aircraft".

Now it just remains to be determined just where or when "final approach" begins. If the airplane on final is 5 miles out and you turn a close-in base and land ahead of him, IMHO it's OK as long as you are down and clear by a safe margin before he lands. I tend to err on the side of caution. I admit that it seems rude to just bull your way in on a straight-in, but courtesy and legal right-of-way don't necessarily have much to do with each other.

Also, I agree with G44 that straight-ins might be more appropriate at a towered airport with a controller to keep everyone sorted out, but the nearest ones to KFNL (Fort Collins CO) seem to be Denver Jeffco or Cheyenne which are all a long ways away.

Well said. The way the rule is written definitely doesn't provide and protection for those that aren't on final, but the existence of the rule (and I don't know of any other rules) allows for others to enter the final while someone else is established.

Straight in approaches are a huge pet peeve of mine ever since my nmac, at last when five other planes are in the pattern. Really, with a pattern that full, I should have buggered off somewhere else, that is just way too crowded.

Thanks for the map measurements. Honestly, I didn't even think to consult the sectional before making my original post, but now I'm thinking I was only maybe on a 2-2.5 mile final after turning behind the Seneca (I made my base turn at approximately the lake closest to the approach end of Rwy 15). Now, I must admit that I can't recall ever timing midfield on the downwind to touchdown, but after seeing that chart I really don't think I dragged my feet for too long of a downwind before I slipped in behind that Seneca.

I mean, I'm certainly not apologizing to this Citabria driver for being reasonably prudent to avoid other inbound traffic. If it cost him an extra $5 on the Hobbs I suppose that's sad, but this is an expensive game to begin with, and sometimes you'll find yourself in a line... ATC has certainly cost me a lot more than that with sequencing into KBJC within the last month, and I'd rather waste an extra minute than end up in a mid air collision.

Nevertheless, even with that said, if there's a way to safely sequence with other traffic more efficiently in the future I'd certainly try to do that for everyone's sake (my own included).

robw56 wrote:7 miles out on final is still pretty far... Even in a Seneca. I would have landed in front of him and been clear of the runway well before he was landing.

Ditto what Rob56 says... In that described situation I think its possible I might have been climbing back to downwind, or shutting it down on the ramp by the time the Seneca crossed the threshold. I dare say that a 3 mile final is a LONG straight in for a pattern flown from downwind/base.

I agree with G44... but I wouldn't say the Seneca pilot was arrogant, he was communicating what he was doing... I don't think he should have assumed he had priority over everyone. AIM 4-3-21 k. says that while doing a practice approach you should be particular alert for other aircraft operating in the local traffic pattern. This implies that you keep your eyes and ears pealed and FIT in.

Also, there might be a possibility that the Citbaria guy was trying to give you a little feedback.... maybe both of you were a little sensitive on this one.

"Any traffic please advise".......

YMMV,
gunny

A lot of guys come out of Houston to practice approaches at our airport, the Navy shows up sometimes too. If I'm on downwind when they make an 8 mile call I'll usually radio that I'm going to make a quick base to final if they're comfortable with it, almost 100% of the time they are.

You never know how people are gonna feel about "getting cut off"-- I got my ass chewed on the radio once for cutting someone off when I was behind him all the way!!

CenterHillAg wrote:A lot of guys come out of Houston to practice approaches at our airport, the Navy shows up sometimes too. If I'm on downwind when they make an 8 mile call I'll usually radio that I'm going to make a quick base to final if they're comfortable with it, almost 100% of the time they are.

Me too. I would have just announced to the Senica that I was close in and was going to "scoot in" in front of him if he had no problem with that. I suspect he would have responded in the affirmative. The Citrabia could make his own decision after that. Just don't dally around after you land. Clear the runway at the earliest safe opportunity.

Kevin,

Glad you liked the chart and waypoints. My intention was to show a graphic and not make you believe there was something wrong in your decisions.

About the Citabria... He was being unreasonable flipping out. You were making a call in the interest of safety and politeness.

Watch out for the pilots (Citabria) who intimidate others. There are some huge egos out there. And they "get off" being "King" of the skys.

Right of way doesn't mean priority in sequence. It means stand on (not altering course).

"I just keep saying, "You are probably right," repeatedly until they shake their head and go away."

I love that, just need to remember it when I am excited.

.
8GCBC said:
Watch out for the pilots (Citabria) who intimidate others. There are some huge egos out there. And they "get off" being "King" of the skys.

I could not resist remembering this little joke :

.
A guy dies and upon his arrival in Heaven, he waits in line at the
Pearly Gates. In the distance this gentleman witnesses a Bonanza
coming in for a landing and to his surprise, it crashes. A few
seconds later he see's the same Bonanza coming in for a landing,
and once again it crashes. Bewildered.. the gentleman shrugs it off
and waits in line. A few seconds later, again he witnesses what
appears to be the same Bonanza, coming in for a landing and every
time it crashes. When the gentleman reaches the front of the line,
he asks St. Peter to explain what he just saw. St Peter explained to
the gentleman not to worry, it was only God and he thinks he's a
Bonanza pilot.

I particularly like the open communication approach to flying and it also works in other aspects of life. It helps people understand the big picture and I believe it helps to reduce anxiety and maybe even improve safety.

In this case, with an airplane on final several miles out, you could simply say that you are ready to turn base and if the plane on final has you in sight or believes they are well out of your way they may say, "yeah, go ahead and sneak in in front of us".

It happens a lot when planes are in the pattern and someone is waiting to depart. The pilot waiting announces that they are ready for departure and the next plane on approach may say, "go ahead and sneak out". Or you could ask, " say, are you ok if I depart before you land?" This dialogue happens a lot at my home airport and it helps that most of us know each other.

"Hey, this is AKGREG flying a Citabria and I have been the hot topic on a backcountry forum. Anyway, my passenger vomited Caesar salad 20 min ago that was heavy on the garlic and anchovies and every extra second I spend in this plane is one second too many. Can I just turn my base inside your extended final?" If someone said this to me I would let them.

Deleted

Squash wrote:I particularly like the open communication approach to flying and it also works in other aspects of life. It helps people understand the big picture and I believe it helps to reduce anxiety and maybe even improve safety.

In this case, with an airplane on final several miles out, you could simply say that you are ready to turn base and if the plane on final has you in sight or believes they are well out of your way they may say, "yeah, go ahead and sneak in in front of us".

It happens a lot when planes are in the pattern and someone is waiting to depart. The pilot waiting announces that they are ready for departure and the next plane on approach may say, "go ahead and sneak out". Or you could ask, " say, are you ok if I depart before you land?" This dialogue happens a lot at my home airport and it helps that most of us know each other.

"Hey Gregg, I'm flying a Citabria and have been the hot topic on a backcountry forum. Anyway, my passenger vomited Caesar salad 20 min ago that was heavy on the garlic and every extra second I spend in this plane is one second too many. Can I just turn my base inside your extended final?" If someone said this to me I would let them.

Even if the situation hadn't been as dramatic as the one you posted (which I think you meant merely as a hypothetical?), I'd have happily let the Citabria guy turn behind my extended downwind if he felt comfortable doing so. We even debated that he might try to do that. I'm a lower time pilot just coming back to regular flying after an extended break. At this time I'm erring on the side of caution, but I'm definitely not trying to suggest that a more experienced pilot might not have been able to comfortably pull off that maneuver in front of the Seneca. And, the Seneca pilot certainly wasn't being a jerk or anything, so asking him if I could squeeze in front might have been a viable option as well.

I do very much agree that open communication helps… I've had the same kind of dialogue with people that you mentioned in your previous paragraph, both with people telling me to squeeze out in front, or me telling them to do the same. I personally have no need to play king of the sky, though I recognize that some people are more inclined to do so (as a previous poster also recognized). I fly for recreation and enjoyment, and if someone is in a much bigger hurry than I am, I am more than happy to accommodate them in most circumstances.

coloradokevin wrote:

Squash wrote:I particularly like the open communication approach to flying and it also works in other aspects of life. It helps people understand the big picture and I believe it helps to reduce anxiety and maybe even improve safety.

In this case, with an airplane on final several miles out, you could simply say that you are ready to turn base and if the plane on final has you in sight or believes they are well out of your way they may say, "yeah, go ahead and sneak in in front of us".

It happens a lot when planes are in the pattern and someone is waiting to depart. The pilot waiting announces that they are ready for departure and the next plane on approach may say, "go ahead and sneak out". Or you could ask, " say, are you ok if I depart before you land?" This dialogue happens a lot at my home airport and it helps that most of us know each other.

"Hey Gregg, I'm flying a Citabria and have been the hot topic on a backcountry forum. Anyway, my passenger vomited Caesar salad 20 min ago that was heavy on the garlic and every extra second I spend in this plane is one second too many. Can I just turn my base inside your extended final?" If someone said this to me I would let them.

Even if the situation hadn't been as dramatic as the one you posted (which I think you meant merely as a hypothetical?), I'd have happily let the Citabria guy turn behind my extended downwind if he felt comfortable doing so. We even debated that he might try to do that. I'm a lower time pilot just coming back to regular flying after an extended break. At this time I'm erring on the side of caution, but I'm definitely not trying to suggest that a more experienced pilot might not have been able to comfortably pull off that maneuver in front of the Seneca. And, the Seneca pilot certainly wasn't being a jerk or anything, so asking him if I could squeeze in front might have been a viable option as well.

I do very much agree that open communication helps… I've had the same kind of dialogue with people that you mentioned in your previous paragraph, both with people telling me to squeeze out in front, or me telling them to do the same. I personally have no need to play king of the sky, though I recognize that some people are more inclined to do so (as a previous poster also recognized). I fly for recreation and enjoyment, and if someone is in a much bigger hurry than I am, I am more than happy to accommodate them in most circumstances.

Good attitude......and a good attitude is the best medicine while in the traffic pattern. To me, right of way is a wonderful concept, but it won't protect you from a mid air.

I hate pilots who fly monster traffic patterns, and I'll whine and snivel about it, privately. But, I'm sure not going to cut them off or get ugly on the frequency over something like you described. If someone else wants to get "chatty" on the radio, ignoring them is the best approach....just as you did.

But, be very careful cutting in front of someone else, even if they concur. If that results in something ugly, or if there happens to be a fed at the drome that day, it could result in some FAA enforcement issues for you.

If you're in such a big rush to get on the ground or to finish another pattern that you can't fly a big pattern, you should likely head to another airport. I used to tell my students in situations like this "Hey, you're the one wanting to build time, right? Don't be in a big rush, enjoy the flying."

MTV

I think you handled it great. When in doubt, there's very little downside to extending your base. Good excuse to practice your slow flight, too. That way you don't end up so far out.

Of course if you feel comfortable and get an OK from the guy on final to land in front of him, that's very common to do. I wouldn't do it unless I had an OK from him though, even if I felt comfortable. No need to stress a fellow pilot out just to save a few minutes.

Logical consequence has played a part in my decision not to get in a hurry. For years I have stayed in very close and landed very quickly when others were not around. Over the years I have come to a conclusion: giving somebody what for and then getting in front of him is not smart. Especially when I fly a very slow airplane.

OregonMaule wrote:

robw56 wrote:7 miles out on final is still pretty far... Even in a Seneca. I would have landed in front of him and been clear of the runway well before he was landing.

I second Rob

Uh, no. Saying you're on final does not mean all other traffic now has to follow you. No way in hell if I'm midfield I'm following an aircraft on a 7 mile final. What if he calls 10 miles out? 15? Where does it end?

See and avoid works both ways. You need to be sure you don't see, however. It helps to be low, even though that is not considered good form. From 100' AGL and 1/4 mile from the field you can be pretty sure that you don't see anyone in the pattern or on long final.

Notes to self:

1) don't use ifr terms on a vfr day. Final approach fix may be construed As final to others and vfr traffic doesn't know where the hell BUMFK is.

2 ) entering a hold over the faf is a good way to practice required holding patterns AND give your vfr buddies room. 4 minutes later, they're landed and you're at the fix again to shoot the approach with a hold in your logbook.