I am looking to add a aoa indicator to my 1957 182A. I am leaning towards the alpha systems aoa as there is a lot of info and reviews out there. Not much on the garmin unit. Leaning towards the HUD Eagle or HUD Falcon. Any of you have any of these and can supply me with some feedback or guidance? thanks!

Okay, Clint, this is obviously not what you want to hear, but....it's opinion, and we all know about those, right?

I have one in my plane, was installed before I bought the plane. I am seriously considering removal. It is worse than useless, in my opinion.

Here's why:

First, these devices are not TRUE AOA indicators. Look at a true AOA system, like those on high end jets: They all have a right and left sensor, either on both sides of the nose, or one on each wing. The devices you're referring to have one sensor, mounted well out on one wing. If you understand aerodynamics, you should understand that AOA can and often does, vary along the span of the wing. So, these devices only represent airflow at one point outboard on one wing.

Second, YOU have to adjust these devices to represent what you want it to indicate. So, are you going to set it so it represents the actual stall, or some range above the stall, or????

Third, and to me the most important: With practice and proficiency, YOU can still fly the plane more precisely than any of these things, and that's all with your vision directed OUTSIDE the cockpit. Yes, I know, the display on these is in your range of view, but there's this thing called "accomodation" in your vision.....I want my focus waaaay out there down the runway somewhere, NOT on a device on the glareshield.

Get in that 182 and fly the hell out of it, working on your proficiency. Most folks can do a lot better with less clutter.

Finally, look at the actual sensor provided with these things.....what does that look like to you? Sure looks like a pitot mast to me.

FWIW, which may not be much.

MTV

I agree with MTV it is simply a airspeed indicator with lights. Go spend the money on spin/stall training and you will be much better off. DENNY

I am and always will be out there "Flying the hell out of it" and working on my proficiency. I am just looking to add to and increase safety when I am flying into the backcountry.

clintsaunders112 wrote:I am and always will be out there "Flying the hell out of it" and working on my proficiency. I am just looking to add to and increase safety when I am flying into the backcountry.

Clint,

The point is, IF you are actually proficient in your plane, your butt and the A/S indicator will tell you all you need to know. I spent a lot of hours, low, slow and looking at stuff on the ground, and I never even thought I might need anything else.

But, again, opinions.

So, tell us how one of these things is going to make your flying safer, por favor. I'm not being a smart ass, just wanting to know why you think one is desirable.

MTV

I agree 100% with MTV. Learn to feel the plane and you'll not need any devices. Calibration is so important on these AoAs. I've flown in a few planes with them and they are set way to fast to be any good. Flying the plane by feel and it was pegged on the red the whole time even though the plane was rock solid still.
Spend the money on more avgas.

I have been using the Alpha systems AoA for more than 2,500 hrs and can tell you that this device taught me how to fly the wing.
It adds safety and precision to your flying without the need to have thousands of hrs to get the seats of the pants feel.

And eventually with practice and time for sure you get a feel of the plane, but it is still useful.
The AoA indicator its not only for landing, it gets you accurate Vx , Vy, Vg also very useful during slow flight in confined areas.
They do work.

I don’t disagree with you guys at all, nothing will replace seat time. But if something can make me safer until I have a couple thousand hours, why not? Am I not supposed to fly in the backcountry or do any technical flying until I have that kind of time? Naw, I just see an Avenue to have something help with safety and I don’t see anything wrong with that.

I put a CYA 100 in a late 1958 C180 several years ago; I thought it was helpful in learning those high AOA slow approaches where you better have power at the bottom, or you’re gonna crash. Do I look at it now during landing? Naw, not so much. I do think it’s a useful training aid? Yes. Pretty easy, too. It’s out of the propwash outboard of the strut and mounts in a inspection panel.

Clint,

The point is, it doesn’t take “a couple thousand hours” to get a good feel for a particular airplane. In fact it only takes a surprising few hours.

Look me up, I’ll go fly with you, and we’ll poke the edges, no fee.

Frankly, if you “lean on” one of these things early on, you’ll never really get a feel for the limits.

MTV

I don't understand why so many pilots want to go from flying a plane in reference to a beautiful planet to being a drone pilot flying by reference to a porno box.

yep, that's exactly what I'm trying to do

I appreciate that. where are you located?

I agree, if it take a couple thousand hrs to get a feel for the plane then there's a pretty good chance you never will. And in rhat case by all means buy the AoA. Not as a training aid or anything other then a means to fly the plane. But then don't fool yourself into thinking it will make you learn feel, some people just never do and that's fine.

A1Skinner wrote:I agree, if it take a couple thousand hrs to get a feel for the plane then there's a pretty good chance you never will. And in rhat case by all means buy the AoA. Not as a training aid or anything other then a means to fly the plane. But then don't fool yourself into thinking it will make you learn feel, some people just never do and that's fine.

well its not that I'm not feeling comfortable in the plane. and I am not saying it takes a couple thousand hours, but I just thought it would be a nice aid while I'm doing more and more backcountry operations and learning along the way. I know that the money will be well spent on avgas instead of upgrades. I get that.

I don't fly with an AOA and have never tried one. I appreciate Larry's perspective since he uses it on all of his aircraft. If the purpose of having an AOA is to make STOL landings and takeoffs I think this goal can be accomplished with training and just learning your airplane flying characteristics as many others have opined. I don't think any guys competing in Valdez use them. I routinely practice slow flight and stalls in my 180. I use the start of my stall horn as a cheap man's AOA. It sits about 7-8 mph above the buffet. Of course this will vary based on the load, DA, and CG but eventually you get a natural feel for how the wing will behave. I practice STOL landings and takeoffs whenever I fly so I stay proficient. Plus it is super fun. I do see an alternative benefit for having an AOA. It might be beneficial for determining best glide in the event of engine failure at altitude since this number varies with altitude and load/cg. It could make the difference in making an airport, or suitable landing spot over a less favorable location. Seems like an expensive system for the added value but I come the place of having never tried using one.




Josh

I had a AOA in my RV8 and I liked it. It worked really well in that airplane and fit the mission. As a extremely low time Skywagon pilot that is rebuilding a project I was getting ramped up to install a AOA in it. After some slow flight training in a newer 180 with no wing mods whatsoever, I walked away from the experience with a completely different opinion on putting a AOA in my plane. The cost to me really isn't that much as I'm doing a full panel overhaul, whats another $650 on top of a full panel suit. I just doubt it would work worth a damn. The Skywagon talks to you so much before the stall, more than what my RV did anyway. From some of the reading I've done, putting a Sportsman, Wing X, and VG's on a Wagon makes it really hard to get a stall (my configuration). This is still to be seen in my project, but I think I would get so frustrated trying to accurately calibrate the AOA it would be a real PIA.

So, I'm not doing it, and I really like mods. Just don't see the point in this one, yet anyway.

I'm a guy who flies a Skywagon poorly; believe me when I say I'm sympathetic to the idea. We're in an uncomfortable situation, and someone offers a solution that only costs money, and not even a lot of it. It doesn't appear that many serious backcountry guys use them, including youngsters, so it isn't just a case of old farts disliking new tech. Of course, I can't tell from Indiana who's serious or who does what. I do know a strip doesn't have to be surrounded by beauty to be short.

I hope you don't mind me including myself in your question. Maybe we should commit to, say, $1000 worth of instruction and 200 hours of practice before we get the AoA thing. We'll invest in getting the sensors in our hands and feet before getting one out on the wing somewhere. Either way, the sensor is only as good as the calibration.

StuBob wrote:I'm a guy who flies a Skywagon poorly; believe me when I say I'm sympathetic to the idea. We're in an uncomfortable situation, and someone offers a solution that only costs money, and not even a lot of it. It doesn't appear that many serious backcountry guys use them, including youngsters, so it isn't just a case of old farts disliking new tech. Of course, I can't tell from Indiana who's serious or who does what. I do know a strip doesn't have to be surrounded by beauty to be short.

I hope you don't mind me including myself in your question. Maybe we should commit to, say, $1000 worth of instruction and 200 hours of practice before we get the AoA thing. We'll invest in getting the sensors in our hands and feet before getting one out on the wing somewhere. Either way, the sensor is only as good as the calibration.

thank you for your comments.

I'm old and completely agree with MTV, but Larry has learned to decelerate on short final to land slowly and softly with power on the exact spot. My technical question is what use does an airspeed indicator or AOA indicator have in ground effect where we actually stall down to land? Larry has covered that somewhat in the past, but I contend that he also has learned to maintain what appears to be a brisk walk all the way down as well. The apparent rate of closure change as we get closer is constantly available and is not pilot set. It cares not for any V speed or AOA indication, all of which are OGE (out of ground effect) speeds anyway. Jughead and the STOL competition guys obviously use the apparent brisk walk closure rate illusion, whether they know it or not, because they decelerate on short final. Those with very high tech light sport airplanes that fly very slow OGE and hold that very slow airspeed all the way down (stall down) and then allow the big soft tires to absorb the energy can make use of either airspeed indication or AOA indication quite well. Larry, however, does better than that. He doesn't bounce that 182 because he gets a bit slower than V whatever or AOA whatever to touchdown slowly and softly with power. V whatever or AOA whatever can probably help back on final, but neither can feel it on slowly and softly. And power can only help if slow enough to mush. Call it power stall down.