Just read where the Government is going to be requiring alcohol in all auto fuel in the very near future.

If thats the case the current Auto Fuel STC's we are using will be null and void since the STC's stipulate no alcohol.

Shucks.

I understand that there is at least one stc out there to use ethanol fuels in aircraft.

The big problem, though, is those fuels don't contain near as much energy per gallon as does gasoline, so range is shorter, weights are heavier, and there are other issues as well.

MTV

Just read through my Petersen STC's and they strictly prohibit the use of auto fuel with alcohol.

Which STC is it that allows it's use? Not that I would use it....don't like the thought of the alcohol slowly dissolving the rubber components in my fuel system.

Supercubber-

Where did you read this? What is the time frame? I couldn't find anything with a quick Google search (other than Iowa legislature passed a bill wanting ethanol in all auto fuel by 2020).

Thanks,
Chris

Zim,

I read a piece in our local paper pertaining to it along with bio-diesel. I also listened to a news broadcast on cable that was addressing it. They were saying that all auto fuel could contain alcohol as early as 2008.

Supercubber wrote:Which STC is it that allows it's use? Not that I would use it....don't like the thought of the alcohol slowly dissolving the rubber components in my fuel system.

I think Private Pilot (could be wrong) had an article about ethanol in one of last years issues. It brought up exactly this. In order to use ethanol some of the gaskets and other rubber components have to be replaced with ones that can withstand the ethanol.

It was interesting, as I did not realize that much research had been going on into this. The subject of the article had even flown trans atlantic on ethanol as a "point proving" type of thing.

They're already talking $4.00 a gallon for auto fuel by the end of the summer, so you may see alcohol introduced by all the fuel suppliers sooner than anyone would like.

The alcohol can also destroy the floats in your carbuerator depending on which ones you have installed, not to mention any other rubber components throughout your fuel system.

Supercubber wrote:They're already talking $4.00 a gallon for auto fuel by the end of the summer, so you may see alcohol introduced by all the fuel suppliers sooner than anyone would like.

The alcohol can also destroy the floats in your carbuerator depending on which ones you have installed, not to mention any other rubber components throughout your fuel system.

I am guessing that supercubber lives here in the Hole cause the local paper had an article about that same subject recently. He also uses a pic of the moulton barn on mormon row with the tetons in the background as his pic of choice. Let me say right up front I am willing to bet with the current state of things in the oil market worldwide we will see alcohol in the mogas fuel sooner then later. As a former racer who has burned hundreds if not thousands of gallons of alcohol in my younger years I see the challenges that surround us pilots. Brass floats in the carb will cure that issue but all the other rubber products in the whole fuel system will need to be reviewed for adaptability. Fuel bladders will be the major setback for those whos planes utilize them. Other then the fact that I LOVE the smell of an alcohol motor running we are in for a long road ahead. Oh yeah,,,, Happy Easter everyone. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ben
JAC
www.haaspowerair.com

Hi everybody,
The reason alcohol is prohibited in aviation fuel is that rapid changes in altitude can cause the alcohol to come out of solution. I think it has a different vapor pressure than the fuel, anyway the engine won't run on alcohol so if it came out of solution and a bunch went through the engine it would stop running. There's a great article about it on the EAA website. Not sure I got the facts right, but that's the general idea.

Alcohol is also hydroscopic. Some states I thought had passed bills not allowing alcohol in premium auto fuel. There are a lot of motor vehicles other than us that are not alcohol compatible. Classic cars was the one I remember.

Just caught this thread as I have been delivering corn to the ethanol plant the last few days. I have a flex fuel Ford Taurus designed for 85% ethanol but it can run on straight gasoline also or any combination in between. I have been using E-85 to blend a 50/50 mixture of ethanol for my "92" Toyota 4x4 and Ford Aspire for the last 4 or 5 years. They still run fine with no problems--injectors are probably cleaner than if I used straight gasoline. I also have an ongoing test with the rubber gascolator seal for my 180 Cessna and a piece of 5052 aluminum in a jar of E-85 for close to 2 years and can't see any change yet. Texas Skyways has the STC for the 0-470 UTS to run AGE-85 which is 88% ethanol,11% pentane, and1% biodiesel. As far as the fuel system goes, the bladders in the 180/182 need to be nitrile rubber which most probably are anyway. High compression is the ticket to make ethanol efficient. Stol has probably used methanol instead of ethanol and there is a big difference. As far as price goes, one the ethanol plants that I'm in has most of the 50 million gallon production this year contracted for $1.30 a gallon. When you hear how high priced it is, it's because someone in the middle is taking a good sized cut.
Marty

There is a low wing AG plane built in South America, looks like an Ag Truck. I think it uses an IO-540. I'll think of it's name eventually, but it is certified to fly on alcohol or a blend , I don't know which, so it can be done. It's just like anything else like this, economics will drive the solution more than feasibility or practicality.

Figured Marty would like this from AVweb today.



The high price of avgas has a Brazilian plane-maker turning to alcohol. Neiva, a subsidiary of Embraer, delivered the world's first production model ethanol-powered crop duster in March and has plans to build 70 more this year. For 30 years, Brazil has been developing ethanol-fueled vehicles to reduce dependence on oil imports and at least a third of all cars produced there can run on alcohol. There are about 400 aircraft adapted to run on ethanol but the EMB 202 Ipanema is the first certified production aircraft. It's powered by a Lycoming IO-540. While Brazil lacks oil resources, it does have the ability to grow huge amounts of sugar cane, from which the ethanol is produced at about a quarter the cost of gasoline, which now runs at about $7 a gallon in Brazil. The ethanol-powered Ipanema costs about $14,000 more than the avgas version but the fuel savings, plus the greater durability and what the company claims is a 7-percent increase in power output from the modified engine, makes up for the higher initial cost. Neiva director Acir Padiha also noted that ethanol pollutes less and is a renewable resource, assuming you have the land and climate to grow millions of acres of sugar cane. The company is now planning to convert six-passenger Sertanejo and Minuano aircraft to ethanol.
_________________
Steve Pierce

"When everything seems to be going against you, remember that the airplane takes off against the wind, not with it."
Henry Ford

University of South Dakota (I think) and Tulsa aircraft engines have been running an AgCat on eth for a while...they're loving it!!
JH

Oh before you know we'll be back to shovelling coal into a furnace. That, or fighting for the leftover fryer oil from Burger King to run in our 2015 Thielert Biodiesels.

Don't worry, boys & girls, I'm working with the local FSDO on getting an STC to install the "Mr Fusion" powerplant on our most popular airframes. You remember that from "Back to the Future Part 2", when mad scientist Christopher Lloyd refuled his time-traveling Delorean with a banana peel & an old half-empty beer can?
The hardest part of the STC is figuring out how to word the "approved for fuel" placards.....

Eric

They're predicting that ethanol production will in itself be partly responsible for driving gas prices up as it's production is increased. The current payout of subsidies for refining, farmers, distributors etc. will keep the price of ethanol up.

Also the price of corn (the current crop of choice for ethanol) production, planting, harvesting and distribution relies heavily on petroleum based fuels. The industry says ethanol is so corrosive it can't be sent through pipelines and has to be transported by railcar or truck further increasing it's expense.

They say at present 30% of the auto fuels have ethanol as an additive, they're pushing for over 50% by the end of the summer.

The production of ethanol is in no way meant to lower fuel prices but to lessen the dependence on foreign oil.

Chinas industry is growing at such a fast pace due to the trade dollars we are sending their way, they have become a major competitor with us for the available sweet crude oil supplies as well as lumber, steel, concrete etc. driving prices up. All this just so American corporations can have a larger profit margin importing their junk instead of having Americans manufacture the items to begin with.

With Iran throwing out threats and our president not ruling out a nuclear strike it's all to easy to see the signs of a major world conflict on the horizon.

Not all of us have the option to run mogas. I don't think there is an STC for my IO540. What I can't figure out is why 100LL is $2.92 a gl. in Hazelhurst Ga. and $4.78 a gl. in Albany Ga. That's almost a $2.00 a gallon spread.

Supercubber wrote

They're predicting that ethanol production will in itself be partly responsible for driving gas prices up as it's production is increased. The current payout of subsidies for refining, farmers, distributors etc. will keep the price of ethanol up.

Also the price of corn (the current crop of choice for ethanol) production, planting, harvesting and distribution relies heavily on petroleum based fuels. The industry says ethanol is so corrosive it can't be sent through pipelines and has to be transported by railcar or truck further increasing it's expense.

Supercubber, Did you see the contracted price of ethanol in my post before in this thread--$1.30 a gallon. Also, isn't it funny what works some places won't work in the USA. In Brazil they ship ethanol through the same pipeline as they do oil. Do you think oil would be as cheap as it is if the oil companies paid for their own protection in the Middle East?
Marty

I'm not sure just how I feel about the political aspect of fuel prices,other than I don't like it, but here's a question-- would you rather pay more for readily available fuel, or pay less for rationed/hard-to-get fuel?
I remember the gas crunch back around 1978-79, don't recall the cause but probably an OPEC thing. Don't recall the price per gallon either, but I do remember waiting in line for over an hour at gas stations & the institution of every-other-day-purchase gas rationing, based on your license plate number.
Think I'd rather pay more, and have a ready supply with no rationing.

Eric