This is like Deja Vu

Thanks for the replys.
Pretty much the same as I hear at my hangar.
The guys that use auto are happy and the guys that don't have heard of something bad happening.

My Superoir O-360 is type certificated to run non ethanol 91 Oct car gas. I usually do not run more than 50% car gas when at home. I contacted the Superior folks when I first got my plane about running straight car gas and they recommended that if I do to just back the timing off a bit. I also inquired about running Marvel Mystery Oil because of the engine warranty..they said no problem. When we replaced the cylinders at 100 hrs because of a Superior recall, there was a fine film of oil on the valve stems so they were getting lubricated quite well. At Annual there is also no fouling of the spark plugs.
There is only one place locally I can get non E, 91 Oct car gas and that is at the local Cenex. This I put in my 76 gal tank on trailer and haul to the plane. This tank is legal (I built it myself) as it is used in a non-commercial manner so it does not need to be placarded.
I have never noticed any difference in performance using the car gas mix even up to 14K and I have never had carb ice.

Who besides me has auto fuel STC on their plane?

OregonMaule wrote:Who besides me has auto fuel STC on their plane?

I have the STC in my 58 Skylane. If I were flying the plane on a weekly basis now, I'd be using auto full at least 50/50 (if not more). I just hate the smell of auto fuel!! But, the savings would override the stench of auto fuel.

I run it whenever I can. I've bought STC's for a 172, 150 and the new 150 already had one. My 175 wasn't STC'd because it was an Avcon. The guy at Peterson's told me that there just wasn't enough of them to do the testing. Then he told me that the O-360A1A is STC'd in other aircraft but you have to use premium.

My 182A came with the STC. I have never found auto gas without ethanol in Northern Arizona....

I boutht the EAA STC in 2009 for my 1953 C180 with rubber fuel bladders. I have ran 318 hours with no problems. 100LL causes frequent mag check failure, and rough running engine.

I run 87 octane. Price right now $3.29. Price of Ave gas in Pocatello, $6.08. Diffference is $2.79 per gallon. At 12.5 gal/hr thats $34.88 difference in fuel cost per hour. Usually the difference between mogas and avfuel isn't that high, but thank God for mogas right now.

Auto fuel damage bladders?
I haven't seen any yet. The bladders are the orignal manufactured in April 1953, and are currently 59 years old. If they fail now it would be difficult to attribute root cause. I believe that one of the hardest things on fuel bladders is exposure to sun and heat from outside storage. This plane has be hangered most of its life, and no doubt has contributed to the bladder longevity.

Hot cylinders due to autogas?
I have an engine monitor, and I have not noticed any difference in cylinder head temperatures between 100LL and mogas. The biggest contributor to cylinder heat from an operations standpoint is rate of climb. My cylinders will overheat if I climb below 100 mph for an extended period of time. I try to maintain cylinder head temps below 400°F by decreasing the rate of climb.

The other contributor to high cylinder head temperatures and burnt or stuck valves is improper valve seating as discussed by Mike Bush in CPA magazines.

Another contributor to short engine life is inactivity. When I bought this plane it had been flown little in the previous 3 years. Compressions were very low, and one cylinder had to be replacced. With regular use, all of the compressions have increased. By using auto fuel I can afford to fly more regulary, and therefore extend the life of my engine.

Other Issues
Auto gas requires more management by the pilot. I test every load of gas BEFORE it goes into my portable tank. On hot days I test the volitility of the fuel, and if I am concerned I wait for it to cool off (not a bad idea anyway due to high density altitude). You will get tired of carrying cans to your plane if you plan to use it over the long haul. Get a portable setup with electric pump and filter that is easy to use.


Ethanol Free in Pocatello, ID


Portable Fuel Tank, Pump, Filter.


Volatility Tester.


Ethanol Tester.


DEGJR

Peterson STC here.

EAA STC on this airplane & my last one (C170), petersen on my first lane (C150). Hurray for car gas!!

DEGJR wrote:......
Ethanol Free in Pocatello, ID

Great fuel prices there in SE Idaho! Here in western WA I just paid $3.47 for 87 octane regular, with ethanol. Last time I bought E-zero 92 octane I paid $4.15-- about a 35 cent premium over E10. I'm hoping more places around here start selling ethanol-free gas, that seems to be a growing trend. I'm sure then the price will come down.

Littlecub wrote: Yeah, the premium auto fuel ruined my cousins 182 bladders in only 10+ years of use. Of course they were quite a bit more than 10+ years old when he bought the airplane......

How could he tell it was the auto fuel that ruined the bladders? And it took 10 years? And the bladders were how old again?

OK, i agree on most all these points...BUT, and there is always a big butt around, why didnt conti and lycoming just placard our birds with auto fuel OK...? ya, liability i suppose mostly, but really, the extra bucks spent on good fuel is $ well spent...
someone said the shelf life of auto fuel is short, and they are right. lots of birds sit around a lot, so that one is a no-brainer for sure. dont have one mechanic here on our home field that will advise on running auto fuel, due to lots of problems in the past. they think the rotax stuff is OK, but not much else...some folkl like Rob get to fly every nice day, and i can see why they would like the alternative...just not sure that i would...maybe blend it with some 109 or such if ya gotta do it...maybe mix 50/50 with 100ll as a safety measure...not sure, just be as safe as possible. here in idaho, we cover a lot of ground that is damn inhospitable to airplanes should u have to put it down...

Well, age on it is hard to pin down. One bladder was bad when we bought the airplane as partners, so we changed it out. My partner (cousin) and I helped with the change out and it was stiff and hard and crusty and it had to be cut up to be removed since it didn't flex much. We only replace the one since my partner never wanted to fix anything unless it was very broken. The second bladder out lasted the partnership and went for (an amazing) 10+ more years leaking somewhat only if it was topped completely off the last couple years. I believe the logs had not indicated a change or repair since new, but the different few owners that plane had tended to log only VERY major repairs (and few annuals), and I can only say I was sure the bladders were more than 10+ years old when we bought the plane. Likely much longer..... The bird was new in 67/68......

Saying the premium auto fuel ruined the bladders was meant to be 'tongue in cheek'......
Sorry if I sounded serious.

lc


I asked my CFO and she says the 10+ since we bought that partnership 182 and changed out the first bladder is more like 15+....
I wuz tryn' not to exzaggerate......

Here in western WA I just paid $3.47 for 87 octane regular, with ethanol. Last time I bought E-zero 92 octane I paid $4.15-- about a 35 cent premium over E10. I'm hoping more places around here start selling ethanol-free gas, that seems to be a growing trend. I'm sure then the price will come down.

Thanks for posting that since it answers a question I had over on Supercub. 12 Geezer said his Prius got 6% less mileage on E10 vs. E0. Both "E's"are 87 octane it looks like so the reason the E10 is worse is because of the poor quality gas it is mixed with. I explained that if the gas portion of the fuel was the same, the E10 would be 2 to 2.5 octane points higher.

180Marty wrote:

Here in western WA I just paid $3.47 for 87 octane regular, with ethanol. Last time I bought E-zero 92 octane I paid $4.15-- about a 35 cent premium over E10. I'm hoping more places around here start selling ethanol-free gas, that seems to be a growing trend. I'm sure then the price will come down.

Thanks for posting that since it answers a question I had over on Supercub. 12 Geezer said his Prius got 6% less mileage on E10 vs. E0. Both "E's"are 87 octane it looks like so the reason the E10 is worse is because of the poor quality gas it is mixed with. I explained that if the gas portion of the fuel was the same, the E10 would be 2 to 2.5 octane points higher.

Marty....... You really need to get a grip on reality.... Ethanol or Methanol or any other oxygen bearing fuel will NOT produce the same BTU output as gasoline... I know you are smack dab in the CORN belt and have a huge interest in the future of Ethanol and I respect your right to lobby on its behalf on the internet but..... Just look at the example you are using in this thread... A Prius will not benefit from a cocktail of gas/ethanol that is 2 - 2.5 points higher, so why even argue that fact. ????? That same Prius will get a certain mileage on straight gas,,,, if you add Ethanol to the blend it will get WORSE mileage. PERIOD. !!!!!!


IMHO.


Ben.

In 73 when cars went to unleaded, no one said anything about changing the rubber in your fuel system. I don't ever remember having trouble with it either. When the alcohol was introduced then there became problems. Early fuel tanks were lead lined and with the alcohol attracting more water they would rust out. Plus the alcohol would ruin the old rubber hoses and make them brittle.

On the boat forums they tell you not to order fuel hose from the dealer but to use new auto fuel line because all the rubber for all fuel systems was changed in the 80's the handle the oxygenated fuel. We don't have that option unless we're experimental.

My 150 does great on auto fuel. My old instructor used it to teach his son in. He swore it used 6 gallons an hour. He always used used 100LL. I run mid grade auto fuel and have never run more than 5 gallons an hour in it.

One article I read said that using premium in a car designed for regular could cause as much as 25% of the fuel to be expelled out the tail pipe. I have always wondered if that is one reason that so many planes need to be topped before TBO. All that unburnt fuel could be washing the cylinders down and preventing the oil to lubricate like it should. Anyone here remember back when 80LL was around? Were there that many cylinder problems? Don't know if that's the case but I have wondered about it.

Ben is right on with his comments too. There is less energy in E10 than E0 so how could it possibly give you better mileage. Most articles say you will loose 7 - 10% on mileage. My experience is 30% in older Chevy trucks and I hate the Crap!!! Cost money and performance!

I tested and retested a 100% real gas station before I gave it a try and at 100% autofuel it made my balls swell up and stick...



sight gauge balls in the S Cub (s) that is

A Prius will not benefit from a cocktail of gas/ethanol that is 2 - 2.5 points higher, so why even argue that fact.

So octane doesn't figure into it? Can you explain why my friends 2007 Toyota Camry gets 29.5 mpg on E30, 31 mpg on E10, and the official rating for highway is 30 on straight gas I assume. I drove him to a doctor's appointment a few days ago and it really drove nice. I tried to feather the throttle but kept snapping our necks----he said since the gas pedal recall it does that.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/bymodel/ ... amry.shtml

Here is part of my post on Supercub---can you explain my other friends experience?

I still remember an older friend of mine that wouldn't use 89 octane E10 in his 2001 or 2 Tahoe. Instead he used 91 octane straight gas instead of 87(suggested by the factory) straight gasoline because he said he got better mpg's. I think the btu content of both the 87 and 91 were probably the same so octane must play into the equation. By the way, that was a few years ago and he now uses E10(saw the light) since most people around here use E10 voluntarily because the mileage seems to be the same as 87 straight stuff.

A Prius will not benefit from a cocktail of gas/ethanol that is 2 - 2.5 points higher, so why even argue that fact. ?????

I misread your post. The Prius has used both fuels---E10 and E0,both 87 octane. The E10 is probably comprised of sub-octane crap that needs help from ethanol to get it up to 87 octane. From what I've read, that sub-octane is the major reason E10 takes the mileage hit. I should see how hard it is to drain my gas tank and do my own test with the 87 E0 we have around here in Iowa vs the 89 octane E10 we have that is 90% 87/10% ethanol.