I have my Instrument, and I am working on my commercial rating. I am into the commercial rating 17 hours so far, and I am getting a little frustrated as I don't seem to be making any progress.

What is everyone's experience for average hours required to complete the commercial rating?

I have 13 hours of dual so far, and have practiced 6 hours solo. I am getting close to 20 hours total of instruction and practice just for commercial maneuvers.

Am I just being impatient, or is that in the neighborhood of what others have experienced?

Thanks.

DEGJR

Do you have the required 250 hours and xcountry flights already or are you still working on that? It took me almost 15 months working on my own to get all the hours for my comm from my pvt but once I had the hours the maneuvers came pretty naturally.

2 days at Shebles (Ft.Mohave, just south of Bullhead City AZ.) after you meet their initial requirements.
gary

Trevdog - I had over a thousand hours when I started the commercial training, so I thought the commercial wouldn't be that big of a deal.

I have passed the written exam, so that isn't a problem.

Gary - 2 days at Sheble's sounds like a great deal. I have spent 6 months so far dicking around with the commercial locally. I am beginning to think maybe I need to take a different approach.

There are two parts to the Commercial practical test:

1) An oral exam. This is (should be) a comprehensive review of commercial regulations/certificate requirements/complex aircraft/aerodynamics, plus airspace, etc, etc.

2) A flight, which requires that you fly the Commercial maneuvers to the PTS standards.

The key here is "to the Practical Test Standards".

First thing I would do is tell your instructor you want to go out and fly a mock practical test flight, with point by point evaluation of your flight of each maneuver, and how it does or does not meet the PTS. If you're not flying to standards, going somewhere else may or may not help. Changing instructors might be the best solution in that case.

There are lots of "Quickie" Completion outfits out there in any case.

MTV

i did my instrument down there last winter. I have my commercial written done, and am planning to do my practical down there next winter. Seems like the cost for the commercial/practical was around $3000, using their planes.
Gary

MTV - I think that is where my frustration lies. I went up with my instructor on just such a ride, and the feedback was that I was "a little rough.", and probably had a fifty fifty chance of passing the check ride. I guess I am just not sure what it is I need to improve, or how to improve it.

I have read the PTS standards, and I can fly to the standards anywhere they give a number (such as within +/- 100 ft, +/- 10 degrees etc.). A lot of how the maneuvers should be flow is subjective to instructor/examiner preference.

I just can't help but think that at nearly 20 hours of trying, I should be a little closer than 50/50 chance of passing. Is it just me, or is something wrong? 20 hours is nearly half the time required to complete a private certificate.

That's why I am asking what other people's experiences are... I don't know if I am just being impatient, or if I need to make other changes.

I just finished my commercial last week. The written was the hard part for me, had to go to a two day finish up class to get it done. But with that out of the way and using one of my own planes and local instructor it seems I had maybe 6-7 hours of prep for maneuvers, but I have over 2,000 hours total time, That did not include the 2 hour dual night x-country which I was lacking. Best advice is do a mock check ride with a different instructor have him write it down as you go through it point by point, this will tell you how close you are. If you go to a school they will more than likey want you to do the whole program regardless of prior dual. The oral was about 2 1/2 -3 hours and the ride was 1 1/2 hours. Do not let too much time go by from passing witten to the oral or we start to forget things. I was glad I got it done!!! To me it just means I am at the next level.

Remember the PTS is an average pilot on an average day. If you were only holding the PTS min's I would not sign you off for a check-ride.
You have to strive for zero-zero on deviations. Once you can easily meet PTS standards without any coaching you will be ready for the check-ride. Just be patient and practice, you will need these skills for all the check-rides to come. Might as well get them down cold.
If your short on money then study; it's free and you will never know enough in this industry, believe me.
Good luck

Congratulations Little John! I envy you.

I did not know the oral portion of the check ride would be 2 1/2 hours. Wow! Good to know. It has been about a month since I passed the written, but already I find I am forgetting some of the things. That is why I am anxious to take the check ride while the info I studied is still fresh in my mind.

Thanks for responding. I am really trying to get a feel for how long the commercial "normally" takes, and what other people have experienced.

DEGJR

Spent the past 18 years of flying to get it done. Finally last summer I decided to buckle down and got it done in about 2 months. Honestly, (for me anyhow) the flying was the easy part. My oral was about an hour and a half (maybe a bit less) but that was the hardest part. As mentioned above, if your only getting a 50/50 keep praciticing. All of a sudden you will say that the flying is the easy part...trust me. Are you going to go get your CFI next? The manuevers (except your in the right seat) and written are just about the same...(almost).

Good luck
AKT

The instructor said a little rough.
But how do you honestly feel that you are doing?
If you think you are still rough then keep practicing until you get proficient however long it takes.

I had about 800 hours when I decided to do my commercial.

I had to travel 100 miles every time I wanted to fly to get to a complex plane at a flight school.

Costly and burned up alot of personal aircraft time just getting there.

I studied on my own using Gleim books.

After a few weeks with the young instructor telling me I was doing the maneuvers nicely and doing well at practicing oral questions. And enough complex time to take the checkride.
I asked about scheduling my checkride because I knew there was a fairly long waiting list. I think about a month or so out. He said something to the effect of " oh no we're not ready for that yet. The owner of the flight school doesn't like to rush things. We like you to have about 30 hours in the plane."

That same afternoon I went home and called Sheble's. Had my ticket in hand about 4 days later.

I really think the flight school was just trying to milk as much as they could get from me.

I personally think most people are better off finding an old grumpy flight instructor outside a flight school that has been there done that for many years to do your training with.

Good luck and don't get discouraged.

Not wanting to sound too pedantic about it, but it's not a commercial "rating".

I have to echo--fly with a different instructor, go through everything, and get a good evaluation. "A little rough" doesn't give you much to work with.

It's been so many years and hours since I took my commercial checkride that I can't recall much of it, other than when I was told that my "passenger" wanted to divert to a different city, he then asked how long it would take, and within a few seconds I told him that "it will take exactly 37 minutes to get there"--he liked that.

Cary

Taking the two day exam prep in Reno at end of June. Then maybe hooking up with Gary and go to Shebles. I will get my complex check out before hand.

Tim

If your instructor is telling you you have a fifty-fifty chance of passing a checkride and that is indeed true, you're not ready for the checkride.

That said, the instructor should post brief PRECISELY where you need work, PRECISELY where you're doing fine, etc after EVERY lesson. Post briefs are probably the most neglected part of flight instruction, yet they are one of the most important.

Find a different instructor (maybe at the same school) and tell them you want a mock checkride, WITH a complete de-brief afterwards, giving specifics that you need to improve on. Then, go home and study those maneuvers, including the procedures to complete---HOW you complete a maneuver is NOT, as you said, a matter of examiner or instructor preference. Get one of the books that specifically describes and illustrates commercial maneuvers.

I've seen Comm seaplane add on oral exams go four hours. That's a person who already has the Commercial certificate.....

Orals are important, and they can be lengthy or short. The difference is generally how quick and accurate you are with responses to questions. If you have to look a lot of stuff up, or just don't know a fair bit, the examiner's not going to cut you any slack.

Again, the number of hours it takes to complete is completely up to you, and is an individual matter. Some of our students do it in 20 hours or so, some take 30 or more.

MTV

MTV,

I always enjoy your responses. It is evident that you are a consumate professional....very knowledgeable and experienced. Your postings always teach me something and remind me of how little I really know. You make me wonder how I managed to stumble through....seriously!

Also I am constantly amazed at how complicated it seems for pilots to gain ratings now. In my day(mid/late 60's) it seemed so easy. I did all my studying via the old Jeppesen courses. Self taught. Used them for the private, commercial, instrument, instructor and ATP. Still have all the musty old books. Never failed a written, oral or check ride in 46 years, including over 42 years of commercial flight.

One big difference between now and then....in the day.... no one studied the answers. The were not available. I still consider that cheating. You had to know the stuff to pass the written and orals. My son. on the other, had simply memorize a 1,000 questions and answers for his writtens. Except for my instructor rating and airline type ratings the orals were never very involved. On the other hand I knew the information from the Jepp courses.

The commercial was a breeze back then. Just a trumped up private with a few advanced manuevers. The same ole boy gave me my commercial who gave me my private. When he signed off my commercial he said...." a few months ago I gave you a licence to kill yourself." "Now I am giving you a licence to kill others and get paid for it"!

Back then one could have a full commercial and flight instructor rating without an instrument rating. Indeed I instructed both single and multi-engine for over a year before I ever got an instrument. Even flew VFR commercial flights for pay in light singles and twins.

Times change. Things are different today. Not convinced that better qualified airmen are produced. However certainly more hoops to jump through now. Best wishes to all the newly minted avaitors. General Aviation is dying. But still lots of fun and adventures for those fortunate enough to achieve.

Blue Skies,

bob

670x – Thanks for the response. I can meet the PTS standards +/- criteria, but I can’t do it zero/zero. That will be my new goal.

Aktahoe1 – I wasn’t planning on going for CFI. I want to do some aerial photography. Called FISDO last year, and explained what I wanted to do. They said I needed a commercial license to offer my services to the public. So, I decided to get the instrument and commercial, since it didn’t make much sense to me to not have the instrument.

SE6601kf – I honestly think I could nail the PTS maneuvers on a calm day. The last flight with the instructor winds were blowing 20kts, so the 8’s on pylons were sloppy, and the lazy 8’s were not symmetrical since I was doing them over a road. On the upwind side I had to turn pretty sharp to get wings level by the time I was back to the road. On the downwind side I got blown a little far from the road. I hadn’t practiced much on windy days, but I am going to remedy that.

MTV – I don’t want to take a check ride where I have a fifty-fifty chance either. They are too expensive to take a chance. I want to nail it first time through. I just I thought I was closer than that, and was surprised to hear that I wasn’t. The communication about precisely where I need work, and precisely where I am doing fine seems to be missing. I believe therein lies my frustration. I will make sure that conversation happens next time.
Also, thanks for the letting me know the hours your students experience. Perhaps my expectations were unrealistic. I thought I should be able to complete it in around 10 hours. You can imagine my concern when I am approaching double my original time estimate. It was time to take stock. Either I expected too much, or something was broken that needed fixed.

Again. Thanks to everyone for responding.

DEGJR

Continuing a bit with the thread drift, I think there is way too much emphasis on scenario training now and not enough emphasis on how to fly the airplane well. Quite honestly, that's one of the better reasons for getting the commercial--the learning and practice and perfection of stick and rudder stuff, so that instead of it being difficult, it becomes second nature. I think instrument students are also often handicapped because they don't yet know how to fly the airplane well, which again should be second nature so that throwing in instrument procedures isn't information overload. I also advocate taking aerobatic training, not to become another Sean Tucker or Patty Wagstaff, but to become a better pilot.

I also agree that memorizing the "book answers" shouldn't be allowed. That's learning to the test, not learning the material for real.

I had my commercial before I started my instrument training, too. It was mandated by the VA, which paid for 90% of my advanced ratings and licenses (not certificates back then). I guess their reasoning was that if the instrument came first, people might stop there, but if they were ostensibly working toward a vocation, the commercial was the way to start. I did single engine charter VFR only, but I already had my instrument rating by then.

One of the mistakes that was prevalent then and still is a mistake is that CFIIs don't need to have ever experienced actual IMC to teach instruments. There is such a difference between flying in the soup and flying with a hood on.

Looking at the Commercial PTS, though, I don't see that it requires all that much different from what we had to do to get the commercial way back when. Both the private and commercial PTSs have been updated, effective June 1st. I notice that the stall awareness section differs from the private PTS, in that in the private, a stall is to be recovered from a "fully developed" stall, whereas the commercial requires recovery at the "onset (buffeting)" of a stall. Both private and commercial PTS now require demonstrating an emergency descent. Otherwise, it seems to me that the PTS simply lists all of the things we had to know then, but then we didn't have the luxury of a PTS to guide us (or the examiner). I would think that would make it easier now, to know what you need to know.

I also think the advice I was given way back when still holds true: take the ride in the simplest airplane with the simplest avionics which still comply with the requirements. Back then we didn't need a complex airplane; now it's required. But there are complex and there are complex--go for the simplest complex (some oxymoron, right?). And make sure that you know how to work everything in the airplane!

Cary

By the way, the FAA test questions are no longer being made available to the public. And, the tests are changing, some gradually, some all at once. Last year, the FAA changed the Fundamentals of Instructing test, and suddenly the failure rate on that exam skyrocketed, like up to something like 80%, overnight. All the test questions are in the process of being "updated" and those questions are not available to Gleim, etc.

I have students tell me frequently that they saw questions on all the exams that are not in the "study guides". I think that's a good thing, personally.

As to debriefs, the absence of a GOOD comprehensive debrief after EVERY flight should be a major cause for concern. I like to see both a good oral de brief AND a written debrief after every flight. There should be no question in a student's mind after a flight "how they did".

MTV

My instructor who does my BFRs and IPCs usually spends at least half an hour briefing me before the flight and then debriefing me. He goes over each of his notes, tells me the positives, tells me where I could improve, tells me when I was flat out wrong in what I did--no holds barred. I can imagine that with a primary student, his debriefings might last a lot longer (I am, after all, a superior pilot! ).

When I was instructing, we often flew in the mornings, before the winds came up. Sometimes my students were in a hurry to get to work, so we'd postpone the debriefing until after work that same day--better than not doing it at all.

I don't see how a student can know how he/she is doing, without a detailed debriefing. Leaving it out is leaving out an important part of instructing. So I agree that debriefings are extremely important.

Cary