Time for avionics for my 182P project. I’m using Neal Aviation in Fallbrook. They are guiding me toward Garmin components including 500 GFC autopilot. Price is a bit higher than competitors but not a deal breaker.

GMA 345
GNX 375
GNC 255
2 ea G5’s
500 GFC AP

Any pros/cons I should consider? Thanks.

In my opinion, don't waste money on a GNC255. Its overpriced and overkill for a nav-com. The SL30 is a better radio in many ways, and equal in all the ways that matter except for the display. If you only need a basic nav-com a nice refreshed KX-155 will be HALF the price with the CDI. The other option out there that is new to the market it the Trig TX56.

I'm not sure what the benefit of the recommendations they put up are over a single GTN650 or IFD440? Does all the same stuff except for the ADS-B in. How much IFR are you planning?

WorkingWarbirds wrote:In my opinion, don't waste money on a GNC255. Its overpriced and overkill for a nav-com. The SL30 is a better radio in many ways, and equal in all the ways that matter except for the display. If you only need a basic nav-com a nice refreshed KX-155 will be HALF the price with the CDI. The other option out there that is new to the market it the Trig TX56.

I'm not sure what the benefit of the recommendations they put up are over a single GTN650 or IFD440? Does all the same stuff except for the ADS-B in. How much IFR are you planning?

Planning no IFR now. Considering resale in this package. I'm taking all info in. Thank you for the input.

skyward II wrote:

WorkingWarbirds wrote:In my opinion, don't waste money on a GNC255. Its overpriced and overkill for a nav-com. The SL30 is a better radio in many ways, and equal in all the ways that matter except for the display. If you only need a basic nav-com a nice refreshed KX-155 will be HALF the price with the CDI. The other option out there that is new to the market it the Trig TX56.

I'm not sure what the benefit of the recommendations they put up are over a single GTN650 or IFD440? Does all the same stuff except for the ADS-B in. How much IFR are you planning?

Planning no IFR now. Considering resale in this package. I'm taking all info in. Thank you for the input.

For resale, I’d consider IFR, if you’re putting that much into it…..

MTV

mtv wrote:

skyward II wrote:

WorkingWarbirds wrote:In my opinion, don't waste money on a GNC255. Its overpriced and overkill for a nav-com. The SL30 is a better radio in many ways, and equal in all the ways that matter except for the display. If you only need a basic nav-com a nice refreshed KX-155 will be HALF the price with the CDI. The other option out there that is new to the market it the Trig TX56.

I'm not sure what the benefit of the recommendations they put up are over a single GTN650 or IFD440? Does all the same stuff except for the ADS-B in. How much IFR are you planning?

Planning no IFR now. Considering resale in this package. I'm taking all info in. Thank you for the input.

For resale, I’d consider IFR, if you’re putting that much into it…..

MTV

Thanks for more input. I'm listening.

I'd like to publicly thank Bigrenna (Bushwagon East) for a lot of guidance and information below that he and others here have generously offered for my very similar questions. I'm working on planning a panel upgrade now for my '55 180. This is where I'm at.

I initially thought about dual G5's, but then the additional cost of 2 GI275's is not that great relatively, they are much better units, and easier (less labor) to install - and you get to remove some weight by getting rid of all the legacy 6-pack instruments along with the vacuum system. So 2 GI275's can replace everything whereas dual G5's have to keep the other 4 old instruments. Add a 3rd 275 for the EIS engine monitor, or choose a CGR30p and you can replace more than 15 or so holes in your panel with just 3 and have a FAR more capable IFR platform with some redundancy. Or keep your current engine monitor whatever that is.

Another concern is availability. G5's can be had now on aircraft spruce, and can be installed by your IA. GI275s have about a 3 month lead time (the ADAHRS version) and are required to be installed by a Garmin dealer. I considered cheaper still uAvionix units - but they are not IFR legal and people seem to be complaining about precession and such with them and I've had hardware problems with uAvionix ADSB beacons at work so I'm dismissing them from my consideration.

For situational awareness - I'm likely going to do a panel install (minor mod) of a portable such as the Garmin Aera 760 hard wired to my IFR gps (GNS 650). That's a 7" screen that is every bit as good as the 7" G3X which won't likely fit into your panel without serious sub-frame modifications, and WAAAAAAY cheaper and easier to upgrade/install in a few years if/when the capacitive touchscreen needs replacing which may not happen or it may - but I just cannot believe the expensive touch screens are going to last as long as say the venerable GNS 430's have.

That being said, Kyle Fosso of Bushliner is now selling his next-gen sub-frame, which includes DER 8110 approved data to make the sub-frame changes legal and avoids STCs and Field Approvals. I have no first hand experience - only talked to him at Oshkosh - and am following along other folks builds who have dove into that realm. If you want 10" screens - it may very well be the same cost and an easier install than 3 G3X's.

The sub-frame and panel is 11.3 AMUs and is being sold through McFarlane. That ain't cheap, but if you want 10" in an early cessna it's likely the only way possible:

https://www.mcfarlaneaviation.com/articles/next-gen-panel-ok22/

What about Dynon SkyView? I know a few guys with them who love ‘em.

And uAvionix AV-30C units ARE IFR approved. Not approved as an HSI under IFR….yet. They’re working on getting a magnetometer approved to accomplish that.

MTV

So we are in a similar boat. We’ve waiting months for the 2 GI-275s and CGR-30P gear to come in. But we also have a 430w that we would like to upgrade. We are keeping the Stec50 autopilot and KX-155a. A GNS 650 would be nice but the xi is $8K more than a 355 and with the KX-155, the only thing I can see gained with the 650 is an inch larger screen. Is that worth $8K? Maybe there is more resale value?
But the real slippery slope is: new transponder? To get ADB-B IN? New audio panel? Complete with intercom to replace the old NAT aa80.
The intercom works but turns out it is a 6 place intercom plugged into 4place wiring, which works but squeals when the rear headsets are plugged in. Guess how long it took me to find that wiring problem.

The current estimate is $50K for the whole panel. $20K gets all the functionality without all the bells and whistles.
It is just money but how much are bells and whistles really worth? In a backcountry airplane?

For me the ultimate decision about Dynon/uAvionix versus Garmin comes down to:

1) ifr gps/nav/com - once you deicide on a garmin unit it's tough not to buy into the ease of installation and interfacing all from a single vendor
2) eventually wanting an autopilot - and garmin has the best from everything I've heard
2) Ability to piece meal it and do as much of the work myself as possible - that means following other people that have done it before and knowing it works and is supported (can't spell geek without a EE)
3) Value - it may be debatable but if I have to sell this thing because of hard times I want to be able to get as much back out of this investment as I can
4) lack of magnetometer and true HSI - we all know how the "working on the STC" discussion goes
5) soured on uAvionix customer support after 2 of our 3 skybeacons at work have failed within 2 years of installation.

If I went with the replaced sub-panel and went with 10" screens, I still think I'd prefer Garmin over Dynon - I could maybe save a few grand but I'm replacing everything in my ancient panel with 3 GI275s (1 eis and 2 ADAHRS units with reversionary capability), GNS 650 (not the xi the older version), PS Engineering 450B audio panel, an Aera 760 with an airgizmo panel, a used mode C garmin GTX327 xponder, or a brand new 325. I still have not decided whether I will ditch my KX155 with 209 CDI or keep it - at that point, I might get a used SL30/40 or a new GTR200 for a second com and just live with a single gps/nav/com unit. I'm deleting the vacuum system. ADSB in is with the stratus I already have, or may eventually decide to do the GDL52R to get xm weather and adsb in to the 760.

I'm going for absolute minimum IFR. I'm aware of the trade-offs there. I live in Colorado - I just want to be able to take my IFR check ride and stay current and occasionally escape fog. This is basically a VFR plane with 3 levels of non-IFR but every bit as capable portable ADAHRS gear for backup redundancy. I've a giant spreadsheet with all my additions and deletions counting the pennies and the pounds. This will conservatively pull 20lbs out of my panel. Likely quite more when I convert to an alternator and move the battery to the panel with the LiFePo4 EarthX. I am deleting a VERY heavy but useful air metal fabricators extended baggage with a ski tube and will be selling that.

I think I can take this plan in bites - until the day comes when the engine tells me she's ready for overhaul - then I'll likely put whatever panel upgrades I have planned on hold while I swallow that bitter pill. I've already gotten the first bite taken - now trying to find someone to sell me and install the GI275 ADAHRS units I need - the rest I will do myself with local IA help. I already did an engine monitor in my previous 180 so I have a sense of the work involved.

I don't know how you get below 20k though. I would encourage you to take a very realistic view of the cost of this stuff unless you can just write the check and not worry about it. I'm looking at 30k, just in parts and not even talking about labor yet - for the things I can't do myself. And that doesn't even include the autopilot and reusing the KX155 nav/com. There's a lot of little miscellaneous stuff you need - start reading the installation manuals if you haven't.

This shit only makes sense in a forever plane, though. If your 182 is it, have at it. For me I need to keep her flying so this is a rolling restoration. Winter is coming and I have a heated hangar to work in finally.

mtv wrote:What about Dynon SkyView? I know a few guys with them who love ‘em.

And uAvionix AV-30C units ARE IFR approved. Not approved as an HSI under IFR….yet. They’re working on getting a magnetometer approved to accomplish that.

MTV

mtv wrote:What about Dynon SkyView? I know a few guys with them who love ‘em.

And uAvionix AV-30C units ARE IFR approved. Not approved as an HSI under IFR….yet. They’re working on getting a magnetometer approved to accomplish that.

MTV

Dynon was actually my first choice IF they had the AP finalized. Looks like it may never happen so I looked for alternative.

I am using one G5 for HSI. I will have HSI and gps in this set up.

The GFC 500 AP components are lightweight and are supposed to help shed some pounds.

Its certainly expensive and money is an object for me but $10k upcharge for the recommended components is not a deal breaker.

These components play well together and I like that.

Yes, $50k is a real number.

This aircraft will be my commuter from Upland CA to Afton WY (Or preferably Alpine if I can find a sponsor) yet still lets me play in mild backcountry conditions when I arrive.

soyAnarchisto wrote:For me the ultimate decision about Dynon/uAvionix versus Garmin comes down to:

1) ifr gps/nav/com - once you deicide on a garmin unit it's tough not to buy into the ease of installation and interfacing all from a single vendor
2) eventually wanting an autopilot - and garmin has the best from everything I've heard
2) Ability to piece meal it and do as much of the work myself as possible - that means following other people that have done it before and knowing it works and is supported (can't spell geek without a EE)
3) Value - it may be debatable but if I have to sell this thing because of hard times I want to be able to get as much back out of this investment as I can
4) lack of magnetometer and true HSI - we all know how the "working on the STC" discussion goes
5) soured on uAvionix customer support after 2 of our 3 skybeacons at work have failed within 2 years of installation.

If I went with the replaced sub-panel and went with 10" screens, I still think I'd prefer Garmin over Dynon - I could maybe save a few grand but I'm replacing everything in my ancient panel with 3 GI275s (1 eis and 2 ADAHRS units with reversionary capability), GNS 650 (not the xi the older version), PS Engineering 450B audio panel, an Aera 760 with an airgizmo panel, a used mode C garmin GTX327 xponder, or a brand new 325. I still have not decided whether I will ditch my KX155 with 209 CDI or keep it - at that point, I might get a used SL30/40 or a new GTR200 for a second com and just live with a single gps/nav/com unit. I'm deleting the vacuum system. ADSB in is with the stratus I already have, or may eventually decide to do the GDL52R to get xm weather and adsb in to the 760.

I'm going for absolute minimum IFR. I'm aware of the trade-offs there. I live in Colorado - I just want to be able to take my IFR check ride and stay current and occasionally escape fog. This is basically a VFR plane with 3 levels of non-IFR but every bit as capable portable ADAHRS gear for backup redundancy. I've a giant spreadsheet with all my additions and deletions counting the pennies and the pounds. This will conservatively pull 20lbs out of my panel. Likely quite more when I convert to an alternator and move the battery to the panel with the LiFePo4 EarthX. I am deleting a VERY heavy but useful air metal fabricators extended baggage with a ski tube and will be selling that.

I think I can take this plan in bites - until the day comes when the engine tells me she's ready for overhaul - then I'll likely put whatever panel upgrades I have planned on hold while I swallow that bitter pill. I've already gotten the first bite taken - now trying to find someone to sell me and install the GI275 ADAHRS units I need - the rest I will do myself with local IA help. I already did an engine monitor in my previous 180 so I have a sense of the work involved.

I don't know how you get below 20k though. I would encourage you to take a very realistic view of the cost of this stuff unless you can just write the check and not worry about it. I'm looking at 30k, just in parts and not even talking about labor yet - for the things I can't do myself. And that doesn't even include the autopilot and reusing the KX155 nav/com. There's a lot of little miscellaneous stuff you need - start reading the installation manuals if you haven't.

This shit only makes sense in a forever plane, though. If your 182 is it, have at it. For me I need to keep her flying so this is a rolling restoration. Winter is coming and I have a heated hangar to work in finally.

mtv wrote:What about Dynon SkyView? I know a few guys with them who love ‘em.

And uAvionix AV-30C units ARE IFR approved. Not approved as an HSI under IFR….yet. They’re working on getting a magnetometer approved to accomplish that.

MTV

I intend it to be my forever plane (I am close to finishing up a '55 170 project, but thats another story).

Everything you touched on in this post pretty much summed up my situation.

I picked up this 182P with 2,7XX hours, mothballed in a hangar in Seguin TX for 36 years, 2 years ago. Its been completely gone through.

I'll include pics when the time is right. I know everyone likes a good project story. I sure do.

It's a nice plane with more hours remaining on it than I will fly before I'm done flying.

skyward II wrote:

mtv wrote:What about Dynon SkyView? I know a few guys with them who love ‘em.

And uAvionix AV-30C units ARE IFR approved. Not approved as an HSI under IFR….yet. They’re working on getting a magnetometer approved to accomplish that.

MTV

This aircraft will be my commuter from Upland CA to Afton WY (Or preferably Alpine if I can find a sponsor) yet still lets me play in mild backcountry conditions when I arrive.

Boy, trying to travel that route reliably and regularly via VFR?

Not my idea of a VFR task.

MTV

mtv wrote:

skyward II wrote:

mtv wrote:What about Dynon SkyView? I know a few guys with them who love ‘em.

And uAvionix AV-30C units ARE IFR approved. Not approved as an HSI under IFR….yet. They’re working on getting a magnetometer approved to accomplish that.

MTV

This aircraft will be my commuter from Upland CA to Afton WY (Or preferably Alpine if I can find a sponsor) yet still lets me play in mild backcountry conditions when I arrive.

Boy, trying to travel that route reliably and regularly via VFR?

Not my idea of a VFR task.

MTV

I'm not sure I alluded to how often, but ok.

IFR all the way.

I
Follow
Roads

Thanks for the advice.

The hard question to me is getting the correct navigator with the GI-275s. Back when the 430 came out, it was a way to get glass panel functionality without replacing the steam gauges. But now with the GI-275s, how much navigator is needed? How much does a 650xi gain in function over say a GNC355? There is an $8K cost difference. What capability do you get for that much coin?

Now if you are going to a GFC500, I could see the value of the 650.

I have the GNX375 and 2 gi275s, which for me is a very nice setup. The main benefit of the 650 vs the GNX375 or the other new navigators is the built-in nav/com. The screen size is nicer too, but if you pair your iPad with the navigator (nothing extra needed) you can do all your flight plan stuff on the iPad and just sync it to the navigator. I rarely do any serious typing on the little screen.

This stuff is expensive, and installation/rewiring/new panel is even more so, but the capability of these things is pretty amazing.

I use ForeFlight on an iPhone and 10” iPad and have become accustom to it for planning and tracking flight path. That satisfies my big screen needs.

I appreciate all the input and will review ideas with my avionics installer.

You guys thought this thread was dead. It just took this long to get it installed. But 2 questions have come up.

EI installation instructions say to not install the EGT probes in the slip joints due to “damage” risk. Our existing G1 installation has the #3 and #4 probes in slip joints. Is the risk of drilling the holes, or of putting new probes in old holes? I am calling EI but am hoping for any insight.

The other issue is getting the tach cable off the tach drive. I had hoped to remove the tach drive completely but there apparently is no STC for that. So the oil filter has to come off to get the cable off? I think it can be capped and stowed until the imminent oil change.

For anyone searching this in the future, I called EI. They said the concern is the slip joint “slipping” and “guillotining” the probe. Makes sense but mine have been there for years so I called the shop to see if the old ones showed any signs of damage. “O yes, the probe on #4 is definitely damaged.”
So, we will be welding shut those old holes and installing the probes outside the slip joints.

The slip joint issue came up on my maule project. A number of people I spoke to have put them in the slip joint successfully by enlarging the hole in the inner exhaust wall. So the outer hole is the ~1/8” probe diameter, inner is more like 1/4” - 3/8”. Allows for movement of the slip joint as designed, and those people said their probes were living long and happy lives.