Dont fret the stuck mike, that's over. I have screwed up worse in the MRI pattern and they have yet to shoot me out of the sky. RE: battery. I have had excellent luck with the odyssey batteries (based in Anchorage), and horrible luck. Maybe they had production issues, but 2 of the 3 I have used worked fine...one failed in the cold consistently. While you may have a generator/alternator issue (I hope to someday have an alternator in my 62 skylane) it cant hurt to have the battery checked under load. THe store called "Battery specialists" on 15th will do a load test for free....

Sean

NineThreeKilo wrote:

mtv wrote:A-1Skinner nailed it. You don’t have a battery problem, you have a charging problem.

First question: Does the plane have a generator or an alternator? These planes all came with generators, and those things don’t put out beans for charge. If that’s the case, first thing I’d do is install one of the new generation of lightweight alternators.

OR, if you do have an alternator, first check ALL wiring associated with that unit. Also, verify a GOOD ground connection from alternator to frame. Verify GOOD ground between engine and frame. Then verify function of voltage regulator.

I’d talk to someone about getting the alternator tested for output if it’s an older unit.

You DO NOT need to put a battery tender on an Odyssey battery because of cold. I parked a Husky with aft battery and no battery heat out at Fort Yukon regularly with temps at -40 and never had a weak start.

I’m not familiar with the type of Odyssey battery you refer to, nor do I understand what you mean by popping the top off it…….The Odyssey battery that’s “approved” in these planes is an SBS J-16 battery, and it is SEALED. If you pop the top off one of those, battery is junk.

Also, be careful charging Odyssey batteries. Too big a charge rate is potentially bad. Better to use a “Smart charger”.

But, your problem isn’t battery……it’s charging system. I’d get a mechanic to check it.

MTV

Interesting

We could notice a difference in our odysseys if the plane was outside in the cold for a couple nights vs in its normal heated hangar, and this was a 135 maintained turbo prop, with a if it needs to buy it budget, and two full time mechanics who’s job was that N number.

For my mear mortal self and my skywagons battery, in a un heated hangar, I just plug it in, small insurance for what 24v batteries go for.

I was working a Husky that came with a gel cell battery, aft mounted, which lost like 5% of its charge every day, and hated the cold. That battery had a heated battery blanket around it, which was wired into the engine heat plug.

I told maintenance to replace that battery with an Odyssey ASAP, which they did. This was in summer. New battery cranked great, and held its charge….life was good. That fall, I flew moose surveys all over interior Alaska with that Husky. Temps ranged always colder than -20, and a lot of -35 to -40 mornings.

It wasn’t till January that, during a maintenance inspection, I realized the mechanics had removed the battery heat blanket along with the gel battery. I sure couldn’t tell the difference. I flew that Husky and another in a lot of very cold weather, often with the plane parked outside at night, and never had any issues with those batteries in cold.

One of the things that MAY damage one of these batteries is over charge. The instructions I’ve seen specifically state no charge is required for a new battery, install it and go fly. Most old time mechanics REALLY want to put a new battery on charge to top it off. DON’T let them. Two year shelf life on Odysseys.

Install and go fly.

MTV

"One of the things that MAY damage one of these batteries is over charge. The instructions I’ve seen specifically state no charge is required for a new battery, install it and go fly. Most old time mechanics REALLY want to put a new battery on charge to top it off. DON’T let them. Two year shelf life on Odysseys."

Install and go fly.

MTV[/quote]

Can't say I buy that. What happens on first start then with a say 75% storage charged battery that just had a quick discharge from a start and is now under the mercy of an ancient generator/regulator or even a new alt with electronic regulator? I would prefer the top up from the modern smart charger, rather than the aircraft doing it.

After my experiences with odyssey batteries in quads/side by sides, I would never put one in my airplane. They seem to work until they just suddenly don't. A1skinner is right - check your charging system, but your odyssey battery is now toast. Once you kill them and try to fast charge, they are junk.

I would bet alot of your radio issues are coming from the battery. Batteries also act like an electrical system stabilizer, hence why you won't see tiny high performance batteries in modern vehicles with lots of electronics. You need a decent sized "sump" to take the spikes and noise out.

Flame suit on, just buy a concorde.......

Compsci, you posted on the SC.org site that you have diagnosed & fixed the battery discharge issue.
How bout filling us in?

hotrod180 wrote:Compsci, you posted on the SC.org site that you have diagnosed & fixed the battery discharge issue.
How bout filling us in?

Haha I wish, I'm looking for an A&P in Anchorage to diagnose and fix the issue. Can't seem to get ahold of anyone out at Merrill.

The push to talk switch in my cub is a simple micro switch from Radio Shack. Don't overthink it. When you recharge your battery go to the website and read up on how to do it. Chargers that are designed for maintaining a full SOC are often called “float” or “trickle” chargers and generally supply current in the 0.5 amp to 1.5 amp range. These chargers might also be called maintenance chargers and are often used to maintain batteries that are used in seasonal applications such as boats or RVs. These chargers are not suitable for recharging ODYSSEY AGM2 batteries that have been deeply discharged. However, they are suitable for maintaining batteries at a full state of charge, provided the float voltage setting is appropriate. The recommended float voltage for ODYSSEY AGM2 batteries is 13.6 volts for a 12-volt battery 77°F (25°C).
DENNY

Mark Y. wrote:"One of the things that MAY damage one of these batteries is over charge. The instructions I’ve seen specifically state no charge is required for a new battery, install it and go fly. Most old time mechanics REALLY want to put a new battery on charge to top it off. DON’T let them. Two year shelf life on Odysseys."

Install and go fly.

MTV

Can't say I buy that. What happens on first start then with a say 75% storage charged battery that just had a quick discharge from a start and is now under the mercy of an ancient generator/regulator or even a new alt with electronic regulator? I would prefer the top up from the modern smart charger, rather than the aircraft doing it.

After my experiences with odyssey batteries in quads/side by sides, I would never put one in my airplane. They seem to work until they just suddenly don't. A1skinner is right - check your charging system, but your odyssey battery is now toast. Once you kill them and try to fast charge, they are junk.

I would bet alot of your radio issues are coming from the battery. Batteries also act like an electrical system stabilizer, hence why you won't see tiny high performance batteries in modern vehicles with lots of electronics. You need a decent sized "sump" to take the spikes and noise out.

Flame suit on, just buy a concorde.......[/quote]Nowhere in the instructions does it say not to top charge them. And there is a long shelf life, but it depends on the temp it is stored at. But a lot of people don't use the correct chargers for them and end up using one with a float charge that is to high, which wrecks them. I usually give them a freshening charge when I install them, using the proper charger that's made for Odyssey batteries.

That said, you are an anomaly for people who have bad luck with them. I've never had one just up and quit immediately. I run one in my 206, and a lot of my customers are running them in many different types and the biggest issue we have is that after 10 years they start to get weak. I just pulled one out of a super cub that is almost 20 years old, it still started the plane but was weak. Concordes are good batteries as well, but are more then 2 times the cost and don't last as long. Not flaming you at all, just a lot of hrs of experience between a lot of aircraft. Thankfully we have the freedom to choose what kind of battery we can run, but I know for me there's no question, I trust my Odyssey.
I do agree that his battery is now wrecked, mainly because he removed the top cap so it is no longer a sealed battery as they are intended to be.

Here's a screenshot of the instructions.

Can an Odyssey legally be installed in a 172? Is there an approval?

I use to use Gill batteries since I was a typical cheapskate owner. They rarely lasted 3-4 years. Switched to a Concorde after all the research and every review saying what a great long lasting battery they are ...sorry, it was no better than the Gill. After 200+/- hours and just under 3 years of use, it gave up the ghost. $300 battery should last longer.

WWhunter wrote:Can an Odyssey legally be installed in a 172? Is there an approval?

I use to use Gill batteries since I was a typical cheapskate owner. They rarely lasted 3-4 years. Switched to a Concorde after all the research and every review saying what a great long lasting battery they are ...sorry, it was no better than the Gill. After 200+/- hours and just under 3 years of use, it gave up the ghost. $300 battery should last longer.

The Odyssey SBS J-16 is a tso’d lead acid battery. It’s a recombinant gas mat technology, but still lead/acid.

AC 43 allows installation of any “approved” lead acid battery in certificates aircraft.

Due to weight change, this would require a new weight and balance be prepared.

So, answer is yes.

The verbiage in the refs is what permits this, and prohibits installation of a Li-Ion battery without an STC , or other additional approval, even though some of those batteries are “approved” (via tso). The reg specifies any approved lead acid battery.

MTV

mtv wrote:

WWhunter wrote:Can an Odyssey legally be installed in a 172? Is there an approval?

I use to use Gill batteries since I was a typical cheapskate owner. They rarely lasted 3-4 years. Switched to a Concorde after all the research and every review saying what a great long lasting battery they are ...sorry, it was no better than the Gill. After 200+/- hours and just under 3 years of use, it gave up the ghost. $300 battery should last longer.

The Odyssey SBS J-16 is a tso’d lead acid battery. It’s a recombinant gas mat technology, but still lead/acid.

AC 43 allows installation of any “approved” lead acid battery in certificates aircraft.

Due to weight change, this would require a new weight and balance be prepared.

So, answer is yes.

The verbiage in the refs is what permits this, and prohibits installation of a Li-Ion battery without an STC , or other additional approval, even though some of those batteries are “approved” (via tso). The reg specifies any approved lead acid battery.

MTV

Thank you sir! Much appreciated.

Battson wrote:Batteries be slower to crank when it's cold, but it's not a charging issue. The chemistry inside a battery depends on temperature, you probably know this if you've ever dropped a dissolving tablet into ice cold water vs hot water. The reactions go slower in the cold. So, when you ask for a massive hit of electrons to turn the starter, from the chemicals inside the battery, the battery just cannot deliver as much power as quickly if it's cold. Even if it's fully charged.

True. The extension of this is to continue cooling to zero Kelvin. Nothing moves.

Got the plane dropped off at the shop today, we'll see what the issue is. May be switching over to an alternator and am also getting the preheater installed.

CompSciAndFly wrote:Got the plane dropped off at the shop today, we'll see what the issue is. May be switching over to an alternator and am also getting the preheater installed.

Good deal! Trust me when I tell you that few things are as frustrating as going to the airport on a gorgeous winter day in Alaska’s dark winters, only to find a dead battery or cold engine. Get the electrical system set up well, and a pre heater, and go have fun on those wonderful winter flights. Winter flying in Alaska CAN be some of the best flying. Or a major PITA.

MTV

Curious, what preheated did you decide on? Do you have a good insulated engine cover?

Kurt

mtv wrote:

CompSciAndFly wrote:Got the plane dropped off at the shop today, we'll see what the issue is. May be switching over to an alternator and am also getting the preheater installed.

Good deal! Trust me when I tell you that few things are as frustrating as going to the airport on a gorgeous winter day in Alaska’s dark winters, only to find a dead battery or cold engine. Get the electrical system set up well, and a pre heater, and go have fun on those wonderful winter flights. Winter flying in Alaska CAN be some of the best flying. Or a major PITA.

MTV

Yeah, I'd love to be able to show up with everything already warmed up, charged, and ready to go. Hoping that's the outcome.

G44 wrote:Curious, what preheated did you decide on? Do you have a good insulated engine cover?

Kurt

I ended up just going with the Tanis 115V system, a local shop had one in stock here, was the most convenient option for me. I do have a pretty good engine cover, however it's a loner so it doesn't fit just right, it doesn't quite reach all the way all the way aft - leaving the gap exposed underneath cowl to the rear. Doesn't seem to be a huge issue right now, but will invest in a new engine cover next winter.

When installing the preheater, you might want to look at adding a 110V pigtail inside the cockpit. Makes it super simple to run a tiny electrical heater in the cockpit while the engine is preheating. Makes for happier radios, happier pilot, and in your case, happier battery. The old standard was a Little Buddy electric heater. Seems to go under the name Zerostart now. Like this.
Cheers,

-DP

denalipilot wrote:When installing the preheater, you might want to look at adding a 110V pigtail inside the cockpit. Makes it super simple to run a tiny electrical heater in the cockpit while the engine is preheating. Makes for happier radios, happier pilot, and in your case, happier battery. The old standard was a Little Buddy electric heater. Seems to go under the name Zerostart now. Like this.
Cheers,

-DP

X2. Highly recommend doing this.

A1Skinner wrote:

denalipilot wrote:When installing the preheater, you might want to look at adding a 110V pigtail inside the cockpit. Makes it super simple to run a tiny electrical heater in the cockpit while the engine is preheating. Makes for happier radios, happier pilot, and in your case, happier battery. The old standard was a Little Buddy electric heater. Seems to go under the name Zerostart now. Like this.
Cheers,

-DP

X2. Highly recommend doing this.

I concur with this recommendation. Other benefit is your windows won't fog up the instant you climb aboard.

And, just to pile on, the way we rigged the heat plugs was we ran them to the boot cowl side, and installed one of the recessed plugs with the male end that most hardware stores sell. Put that in the side of the boot cowl, and you won't have to open the engine cover and fish for a plug in when you want to plug in. Also, this prevents having to leave an extension cord hanging out through a cowl door, or oil check door, torquing those doors.

We also added a small 110 "guide light" a small red light, adjacent to the aforementioned plug in the boot cowl. Now, you plug in, and you are instantly verified that there is power to the system. Otherwise, it's a good idea to carry around a test light to plug in and verify power. I will tell you that I've plugged in to more than one outlet that didn't have power. Often it was just a matter of finding a switch or breaker, but.....NOT what you want to find in morning.

As long as we're spending your maintenance bucks..... . That said, none of this is very expensive, and believe me, it's well worth doing.

MTV

I agree that a heater in the cockpit is a great addition to properly preheating the engine. One word of caution, however, is to make sure your circuit can handle the load. A couple years ago I had both plugged in and they tripped the circuit breaker. I don’t know how many outlets in the tie down area were on that same circuit, but two of us had cold engines after the breaker tripped. And the cockpit heater I was using was not a very big one. As long as we just used the engine heaters, we never had a problem, but the one time I tried the cockpit heater, it tripped.

Ross