PPL TT 106 HRS R44/R22
R44 TTAF 45 HRS
KONP/PHNL

I’m asking for any information on “Bear Paws”. Mainly to purchase, install and use off airport. Approvals and paper work. Mahalo!

I like these. But, sold out for several months so far...

After seeing this former Marine Air chopper pilot, now flying medical emergency locally, make this landing on the ridge behind my place, on a day that was gusting around 30 mph, I wondered how he determined the snow depth and bearing capability and stopped by the hospital the next day to ask him. Like fireman, they have a lot of time down and was glad to BS about flying, a great guy, he said he kinda taps the surface with the Bear Paws and gets an idea how soft or hard the snow is. About the same thing I do with the snow skis when dragging a site. I was surprised they were so small, but seem to be big enough.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7xTgj3Szdo

Don’t hold me to it but I think there is an Air taxi out of maybe the Wasilla/Palmer area that has a R44. It’s somewhere NW of here anyway. They might know.

Try Dart Aerospace, though we usually go through HeliTowCart (out of stock right now). We use them quite a bit, though we take them off for training - slide on autos don't like them. Still lots to go wrong, even with bearpaws. Snow can be soft or hard or crusty. If you break through the crust you can snag a bearpaw with a little yaw. That said, I don't like landing on snow without them. Swamps can sometimes sink in slow, best not to leave it there too long.

We had an ECA do a beach landing and park near a rivulet. An hour later it had sunk up to the axles and they bent the wing struts pulling it out.

Even the Bell 230 I flew last week had them.

courierguy wrote:After seeing this former Marine Air chopper pilot, now flying medical emergency locally, make this landing on the ridge behind my place, on a day that was gusting around 30 mph, I wondered how he determined the snow depth and bearing capability and stopped by the hospital the next day to ask him. Like fireman, they have a lot of time down and was glad to BS about flying, a great guy, he said he kinda taps the surface with the Bear Paws and gets an idea how soft or hard the snow is. About the same thing I do with the snow skis when dragging a site. I was surprised they were so small, but seem to be big enough.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7xTgj3Szdo

Regarding video: Very good example of a “Bad Ass” chopper and Pilot! Thank you for posting! I would certainly love to that some day.

I’m learning a lot from experienced pilots. Thank you for relaying the conversation, it makes sense to me.

As I fly more and more... “Feel” is everything. Can’t get it in a book, simulator, or verbal. Gaining “Feel” in the systems more and more to get better.

Thank you for the input!

gbflyer wrote:Don’t hold me to it but I think there is an Air taxi out of maybe the Wasilla/Palmer area that has a R44. It’s somewhere NW of here anyway. They might know.

After attending the RHC Maintenance Course, attending flight schools, and attending the RHC Safety Course I personally know more Robison operators than I could “Shake a Stick” at! I could put “My feelers out there” and see who using/purchasing them.

Aloha, and Mahalo Brah!

Like they said, you kind of feel it out. Treat every landing like the snow/mud/sand could give way. Gentle collective inputs both going down and coming up.

Karmutzen wrote:Try Dart Aerospace, though we usually go through HeliTowCart (out of stock right now). We use them quite a bit, though we take them off for training - slide on autos don't like them. Still lots to go wrong, even with bearpaws. Snow can be soft or hard or crusty. If you break through the crust you can snag a bearpaw with a little yaw. That said, I don't like landing on snow without them. Swamps can sometimes sink in slow, best not to leave it there too long.

We had an ECA do a beach landing and park near a rivulet. An hour later it had sunk up to the axles and they bent the wing struts pulling it out.

Even the Bell 230 I flew last week had them.

IMG_4873.jpg

I looked at Dart Aerospace’s website and it looked a little unfriendly. No shopping cart just a “Please Submit for a Quote”. Kind of retro. Would prefer HeliTowCart. They apparently speak French, I called and they took my telephone number and promised to immediately contact me when they have them back in stock.

Yes, I see your very good point that the devices have a limited positive affect and a negative affect.

I’m interest in landing on beach type sand (fine, coarse). The sand probably does not require Bear Paws but, it is a start for me to get off airport practice. Snow would be next in abbreviated small steps!

Very good to have you onboard! There will be more questions posted....

Thank you!

CamTom12 wrote:Like they said, you kind of feel it out. Treat every landing like the snow/mud/sand could give way. Gentle collective inputs both going down and coming up.

Very good point. Thank you Cameron! Everybody pretty much says the same after taking.

Definitely a good helo Pilot needs to “Walk and chew gum”. The three main controls are challenging but, oh man what a feeling to lift off vertically over a 200’ tree! I’m love choppers!

http://www.airglas.com/Helicopters/Products/tabid/1025/ctl/ProductDetails/mid/3056/ProductId/66/Default.aspx

Here are some


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Prosaria wrote:http://www.airglas.com/Helicopters/Products/tabid/1025/ctl/ProductDetails/mid/3056/ProductId/66/Default.aspx

Here are some


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Excellent looking product. Looks like increased floatation over standard Bear Paws from what I see... Giving them a telephone call today...

Thank you!!!

Airglas made the skis we used as well. Great product.

CamTom12 wrote:Airglas made the skis we used as well. Great product.

Thank you for the PIREP. Must be a sizable market and definitely satisfaction.

Some random thoughts:

1) A full size ski might be too sticky on mud from suction? And/or very saturated water environment mixed with a fine substrate media in the LZ.

2) Installation would predicate on season and mission vs. leaving on always i.e. benignly easy landings

Hope ya’all PCS out to Hawaii and start flying choppers out here! Aloha!!

8GCBC wrote:

CamTom12 wrote:Airglas made the skis we used as well. Great product.

Thank you for the PIREP. Must be a sizable market and definitely satisfaction.

Some random thoughts:

1) A full size ski might be too sticky on mud from suction? And/or very saturated water environment mixed with a fine substrate media in the LZ.

2) Installation would predicate on season and mission vs. leaving on always i.e. benignly easy landings

Hope ya’all PCS out to Hawaii and start flying choppers out here! Aloha!!

We would “ski” forward out of the muskeg and mud to break free. Like sliding forward on your skids on pavement. A little pressure/counter-pressure on the pedals to ensure they’re not stuck. Always being mindful of uncommanded rolling motions, to avoid getting unwittingly into a dynamic rollover situation.

We wore our skis year-round. They worked as good on the vegetative mats in the muskeg as they did in the snow. Of course, we probably had a bigger budget for replacing them when they wore out, haha.


Man, it’d be fun to live there for a couple of years, but not likely at this point in my career!

Hi

Commercial helicopter/fixed-wing guy here with a lot of operational time on R44's here in Canada. Considerable time as a company training captain.


Buy the Dart bearpaws. Those airglas ones I wouldn't touch....they are like suction cups on mud and freeze down worse than the straight skids. It makes zero difference to a helicopter (even a R44) how deep the snow is...all that matters is that the tail is sitting higher than the nose and well above the snow. An R44 is aft heavy, so you want the bearpaws at the back and the nose sitting low in the snow anyway. I don't know how many places I've landed in my career when I had to push snow with the door just to get out of the machine.


I had to cringe when I read about the one guy "sliding forward" on take-off on muskeg with the airglas skids...….big no no

boomstick wrote:I had to cringe when I read about the one guy "sliding forward" on take-off on muskeg with the airglas skids...….big no no

Worked fine for us in OH-58Ds. Hundreds of landings over hundreds of hours. Maybe you have different considerations.

CamTom12 wrote:

boomstick wrote:I had to cringe when I read about the one guy "sliding forward" on take-off on muskeg with the airglas skids...….big no no

Worked fine for us in OH-58Ds. Hundreds of landings over hundreds of hours. Maybe you have different considerations.

Our different considerations would be that there is no taxpayer money replacing the lost machine. There is zero valid reason for ever "skiing a helicopter" over muskeg.

boomstick wrote:

CamTom12 wrote:

boomstick wrote:I had to cringe when I read about the one guy "sliding forward" on take-off on muskeg with the airglas skids...….big no no

Worked fine for us in OH-58Ds. Hundreds of landings over hundreds of hours. Maybe you have different considerations.

Our different considerations would be that there is no taxpayer money replacing the lost machine. There is zero valid reason for ever "skiing a helicopter" over muskeg.

Never said skiing over, and never lost one. Do you pull your boots straight vertical out of the mud when you walk?

[/quote]

Never said skiing over, and never lost one. Do you pull your boots straight vertical out of the mud when you walk?[/quote]


"We would “ski” forward out of the muskeg and mud to break free"


Your words....

Not trying to pick a fight. But there is good reasons why you don't see full length skis on commercial helicopters. 90% of all skid equiped machines will be on bearpaws if anything.

I know the ECA you speak of. Based near here.