The 170B with 180HP is more fun to fly than the 180, if fun is a factor for you.
It cannot carry as much as the 180, but at gross weight the 170B still performs great.
I dont know how it will perform at high density altitude, have not taken mine to Idaho or Montana yet.

Maybe someone who has flown theirs to high DA might give you an opinion.

motoadve wrote:The 170B with 180HP is more fun to fly than the 180, if fun is a factor for you.
It cannot carry as much as the 180, but at gross weight the 170B still performs great.
I dont know how it will perform at high density altitude, have not taken mine to Idaho or Montana yet.

Maybe someone who has flown theirs to high DA might give you an opinion.

What year of 180 are you comparing to? They are not all the same.

StillLearning wrote:

motoadve wrote:The 170B with 180HP is more fun to fly than the 180, if fun is a factor for yo

What year of 180 are you comparing to? They are not all the same.

Nor is everyone's definition of fun. Having boondocked with a member here who had as well thought out a 180hp/170 as you get I left with a favorable impression, but it would have been a let down where my version of fun starts, absolutely no replacement for a big engined reasonably light 180. Yes, it would do in a pinch, just have to leave the pakboat, the dog, and half the gear at home... and that'd not be fun.

Take care, Rob

Here is a highly subjective thought and a little but of a tangent since we are talking about "fun".

What is more fun? A straight tail 182 or older model 180k/185F? Depends on the flying, i know i know. But for the people that say just buy a 182 it will do 90%, etc. I would never go to even a light straight tail 182 over a heavy wagon.

asa wrote:This website can fairly reliably convince anyone with money to buy a skywagon. The first stage is gatekeeping - telling the prospective buyer than a wagon is too much. “Buy a 182, it’ll do 90%” they say. “As a new pilot, you probably can’t handle one like all of us.” The second stage (after much heehawing and many unrelated stories from the old timers) is letting in a little sliver of hope, that maybe, just maybe, if you get all your marbles together and wear a nice button up shirt, you too could be a skywagon driver with a million hours dual with a billion hour instructor. After another dose of anecdotes, analogies, and “just buy a maule”s by the likes of me, stage 3 is the part where the conversation morphs to a wagon being the only real option, when you think about it. The phrase “Why settle?” slips past their lips nonchalantly as you sign up to spend an amount of money that could put multiple kids through college, feed Uganda for a year, and still have enough left over for a shitbox Tcraft.

I know because it happened to me in 2016.

Love this ^^^^^ post - so funny. So true. Here is the truth for me. Flying Trikes is boring but way more practical. Is a C170 more fun flying than a light early model 180 with a 520 or a late model C185 with an IO550 ? Tailwheel flying is fun flying. That is where the fun factor is for me. The C182 or 206 - super practical and super boring.

ASA is correct. Reading these forums will make you lust after a Skywagon or a C170 with a 180-210HP upgrade. Even a big bore Maule. It can be done as a low time Private Pilot. Barring Mad-Dog innate Chuck Yeager flying skills - most people need a lot of good training with an experience tailwheel instructor. Money well spent. There is a reason the insurance premiums are 3-4 times higher for low time tailwheel pilots. They crash. In fact they crash a lot. Most of the Skywagon fleet has been bent at least once. The ones that haven't been bent will probably get bent. Even with experience there is a insurance tax for flying Tailwheels. Insurers are much smarter and way more practical than pilots.

I do like not worrying about striking my prop while flying off airport. Aside from the fun factor - this is the advantage of the TW. Tailwheels also are beautiful airplanes and for those that appreciate the aesthetics in aviation - advantage to the TW. Yawns for the Trikes !


Josh

This thread is SO internet it's unbelievable and fantastic! Buy the skywagon, maybe you'll get lucky and not kill yourself...and your dog...and your wife...maybe you'll have the instructor that taught Jesus to walk on water...maybe you're Douglas Bader and Contact's love child and you can bracket the rudder with wooden legs...or maybe you'll destroy an irreplaceable airframe and worse.

I nearly died sitting in the right seat of a wagon with someone who had more money then sense/training/experience. He has since managed to learn to fly that beauty, but how much of the journey was missed. Is this a necessity for your life and livelihood? Or is this a pursuit you'd like to be truly a master of? 90% of humans could be taught to fly that thing (skywagon) as their first airplane, no problem, but why shortchange the journey? It seems you have the disposable income and free time, why are you shorting yourself the experience?? Take your time, enjoy the ride, I'm guessing you'll be happier if you follow Rob's advice and become an excellent pilot first so you can truly enjoy and exploit that eventual skywagon it seems the internet has decided is right for you. After all, you don't just pull over when you are in over your head in an airplane.

Side note: you will never ever hear a skywagon driver speak a negative word about the airplane. I'm pretty sure they're contactually obligated to tell you only positive things about the type (and I'm going to get one as soon as I possibly can )

Or ball up another unicorn and ensure us lowly roughnecks who cut our teeth in Pacers and C140s and Tcarts will never be able to afford an increasingly rare skywagon.

Why anyone on this forum listens to anyone but Rob and ASA is beyond me...



Lurker pulled out, Bigrenna

Speaking of...just retain him and he'll pick out what's right for you....he know's best.

If it’s a sky wagon you want there is lots of them for sale up here.

My first plane was a Super Cub. I flew it about 250 hours before bigger, faster, longer range bug hit me. I found a '54 180 for sale and went to see it. First time I'd ever flown a 180 was the demo flight in Rockford Il. Never had formal instruction and took it back to Utah. Never had any issues although I did learn a lot in a short period of time.

180/185's are not the big bad beast they can be made out to be here. They just demand a certain amount of respect and caution when learning.I would suggest as the above have mentioned. If you get one first then plan to send a fair bit time with a good TW instructor with lots of 180/185 time. If you do the step up approach you will be fine as well. Its just up to you.

MW

I believe there’s value in being a little slutty in airplane ownership. The diversity and range of flying knowledge/experience/enjoyment will be higher if you’ve owned a bit of everything. Sorta boring to look back on your flying life and realize that you only ever owned one airplane. Once you buy a modded amphib 185, you really think you’re going to have the desire or money to be buying and trying airplanes? Once you wear that Skywagon Club polo shirt with 80’s quality graphic design tucked into your ironed khakis, you really think you’re going to be down to fold yourself into the cockpit of a cub or maule that’s been wrecked 3 times?

Nothing is as satisfying as looking back on an airplane fondly and thinking “Damn that was a piece of shit, glad I got out from under that one” with a big grin.

Come on, take some risks, buy some beaters, get STD tests regularly, and have fun! It’s all about the stories.

asa wrote: The diversity and range of flying knowledge/experience/enjoyment will be higher if you’ve owned a bit of everything.

THIS

And that goes with every aspect of the game. The flying skills built, the Mx skills learnt, the practices, the smiles per miles....


Report back what ya bought

Trikes boring?
Depends on the pilot and what he likes to do? I have lots of fun in my 182, I take it to exciting places that 180s dont want to go.

In my eyes no airplane is boring, I agree some are more fun than others.

Larry,

A light early model 180 has your name written all over it. Faster than your 170. Not as boring as your 182. I must admit the way you fly your C182 - is pretty exciting and anyone who thinks a C182 isn't a backcountry airplane needs to watch your videos. I just think tailwheel flying represents a nice challenge compared to flying Trikes with Landomatic landing gear. 15 years ago - before I bought the 180. It was either going to be a Bonanza or Skywagon. In the end my love for taildraggers was the impetus for me to buy my airplane.



Josh

The modern light and high powered tailwheel and nose wheel airplanes that can almost hover out of ground effect demonstrate that landing slow enough makes most places in the desert and many in the mountains possible. That was also true of the many light trainers with 65-90 hp Continental engines years ago. And that was with little tires. Deceleration with power on short final coming into ground effect so as to land slowly (much slower than Vso) and softly on the exact desired spot with power is what made this possible. Acceleration in low ground effect is what made getting out possible. These techniques still do, regardless of the airplane.

The question was best handling backcountry tailwheeler. J-3 Cub, 7 Ac Champ, C-120 or 140, and Tandem or side by side Taylorcraft were excellent backcountry tailwheel airplanes. And they handled better than the heavier airplanes mentioned here, especially ground handling by one man from the tail. More power in bigger airplanes haul more, but they don't handle better.

Deputydog wrote:I currently have a 180 and its the perfect airplane for me and my mission of backcountry flying. Lots of room (I'm 6'5" and portly) so most of the tandem seating type aircraft are pretty cramped for me.

^^^^^this
If your a big guy the Cessna products are hard to beat. At 6’6” and not thin a lot of birds will be cramped/not fun. Space and a good heater are NICE to have. I have a182 and the reality is that will get you into 80% of the backcountry fields but hey, I get the allure of a taildragger or your going hardcore, tundra tires, skis..

asa wrote:This website can fairly reliably convince anyone with money to buy a skywagon. The first stage is gatekeeping - telling the prospective buyer than a wagon is too much. “Buy a 182, it’ll do 90%” they say. “As a new pilot, you probably can’t handle one like all of us.” The second stage (after much heehawing and many unrelated stories from the old timers) is letting in a little sliver of hope, that maybe, just maybe, if you get all your marbles together and wear a nice button up shirt, you too could be a skywagon driver with a million hours dual with a billion hour instructor. After another dose of anecdotes, analogies, and “just buy a maule”s by the likes of me, stage 3 is the part where the conversation morphs to a wagon being the only real option, when you think about it. The phrase “Why settle?” slips past their lips nonchalantly as you sign up to spend an amount of money that could put multiple kids through college, feed Uganda for a year, and still have enough left over for a shitbox Tcraft.

I know because it happened to me in 2016.

LOL, too true.
As is always the case you're best off to get the aircraft that best suits your needs. Problem is it's virtually impossible to really know those needs until you've flown any particular bird for a while. The wagon excels in that it's more versatile than quite a few platforms, thus its pedestal status.
A few years back I was a fresh PPL with ~200 hrs in a 172. I had access to a PA18(thanks Dad!), so was looking for a tailwheel checkout. From 0 TW, insurance for me on the cub was $4k per year. So, instead of burning that stack of $100's, bought a Pacer insured at $1200/yr, burned the relative stack of $20's for a few hundred hours and sold the Pacer to a group of guys looking to do the same. For the difference in insurance I basically flew free for a couple years. Side bonus is exposure to more airframes, learned to fly a squirrely short coupled non fire-breathing beast, and feel a better pilot for it.
In typical fashion for these parts, sold the Pacer to buy a 180(matches our button up shirts better).
Long story short, you're not necessarily money ahead to buy your first airplane last - insurance can effectively make it so you get some training time in a "lesser" aircraft for free. Wish we had the space to keep that Pacer too, but I certainly don't cry every time I fly the 180.