Hi, I am looking at a 1981 185F or a 2009 Glassair sportsman. For those with experience, if I own either aircraft for ten years and then sell:
- Which will have held value the best?
- Which will cost the most to run?
- Which should be more reliable?
- Which is a better backcountry aircraft for Idaho?
Many thanks
Best residual value 185 vs Glassair Sportsman
Fri Jul 26, 2019 8:50 am
- Sterlingmossy offline
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Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:28 am
Re: Best residual value 185 vs Glassair Sportsman
I don't think it's a fair comparison since they're in difference classes. Plus there are more variables. Build quality of the sportsman? Condition of the 38 year old 185? The 'wagon might be a porker based on year.
Certified generally holds value better than experimental.
Assuming the Sportsman has an O-360, it will be lighter and more economical for 2 people. if you have a family or like to haul a lot of gear, the 185.
There's no replacement for displacement, and a 520 cubic inch engine is nice at Idaho elevations. But it's fatter, too.
I think residual value is a terrible way to approach airplane ownership. Go fly them and see which you love. What aircraft do you have experience in? Have you ever owned before? How much flight experience? The fact that you're asking this question at all makes me
Approaching ownership this way is a surefire way to focus on the wrong reasons for flying and is sure to leave you wanting, somehow.
Certified generally holds value better than experimental.
Assuming the Sportsman has an O-360, it will be lighter and more economical for 2 people. if you have a family or like to haul a lot of gear, the 185.
There's no replacement for displacement, and a 520 cubic inch engine is nice at Idaho elevations. But it's fatter, too.
I think residual value is a terrible way to approach airplane ownership. Go fly them and see which you love. What aircraft do you have experience in? Have you ever owned before? How much flight experience? The fact that you're asking this question at all makes me
Approaching ownership this way is a surefire way to focus on the wrong reasons for flying and is sure to leave you wanting, somehow.
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Half a century spent proving “it is better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.”
Fri Jul 26, 2019 11:16 am
Re: Best residual value 185 vs Glassair Sportsman
A wise person once told me to foremost consider the mission. Be realistic about it. The suitable candidates will reveal themselves.
The two planes you mention were designed for different missions
The two planes you mention were designed for different missions
Fri Jul 26, 2019 1:12 pm
Re: Best residual value 185 vs Glassair Sportsman
185
185
185
185
185
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185
Fri Jul 26, 2019 2:00 pm
Re: Best residual value 185 vs Glassair Sportsman
Thank you both for your thoughts. Clearly I am new to all of this 
I have not owned a plane before and have 160 hours TT. I just moved to Idaho (Driggs KDIJ) and would like to continue to develop my flyiung skills and eventually do backcountry flying/camping. The mission would be 1. Scenic flights around the Teton's and backcountry camping. I welcome any thoughts/wisdom that you have for me.
Cheers
I have not owned a plane before and have 160 hours TT. I just moved to Idaho (Driggs KDIJ) and would like to continue to develop my flyiung skills and eventually do backcountry flying/camping. The mission would be 1. Scenic flights around the Teton's and backcountry camping. I welcome any thoughts/wisdom that you have for me.Cheers
- Sterlingmossy offline
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Fri Jul 26, 2019 2:32 pm
Re: Best residual value 185 vs Glassair Sportsman
For that mission, depending on budget, I’m thinking Citabria.
If nothing else, transition training and insurance will be really tough in a Sportsman.
As to resale, who knows? Who would’ve predicted 5 years ago that 172s would spike like they have? My 185 is probably worth 15% more than it was 18 months ago, but that doesn’t mean it’ll be worth anything at all 5 years from now.
You buy an airplane with mad money.
If nothing else, transition training and insurance will be really tough in a Sportsman.
As to resale, who knows? Who would’ve predicted 5 years ago that 172s would spike like they have? My 185 is probably worth 15% more than it was 18 months ago, but that doesn’t mean it’ll be worth anything at all 5 years from now.
You buy an airplane with mad money.
Fri Jul 26, 2019 2:41 pm
Re: Best residual value 185 vs Glassair Sportsman
Sterlingmossy wrote:Thank you both for your thoughts. Clearly I am new to all of this
Cheers
Well...given your TT and that you've never owned a airplane before, I think a 185 is just an absurd option. Yes, it has the horsepower and load capacity to take you into any of the Idaho backcountry airstrips, but that's not going to be in your favor. There's no point in having that much plane without the flight experience to use it, and it's a terrible platform to learn mountain flying in.
I'd be much more inclined to suggest something "inexpensive" and anemic. A Cessna 120/140 with a O-200 or a stock 170 will teach you more about how air moves in the mountains in a hundred hours than you'll EVER learn in a 185. And it's that knowledge...how air moves in the mountains...that makes mountain flying a safe or dangerous proposition, NOT horsepower. Get a few hundred hours learning about air currents and aircraft ownership, then go from there.
You would appear to have money to burn, so maybe buy a classic taildragger in pristine shape and keep it that way, and you can literally put a few hundred hours on it and sell it for what you paid...maybe more. I doubt you can do that with a Sportsman, and the 185 is just a preposterous option for someone in your position so there's no real point in trying to figure out what it'll be worth down the road.
Asking questions is free, but aircraft ownership is not. Based on your original post I'd say you've got a lot of research ahead of you before you can make a intelligent decision here, so don't be in a hurry.
Welcome, and good luck.
Fri Jul 26, 2019 3:41 pm
Re: Best residual value 185 vs Glassair Sportsman
I would buy the 185 but I'm a sucker for Cessnas.
I agree with Hammer that you would learn more about the mountains in an underpowered plane but I don't agree at all that a 185 would be a poor choice for that reason. You'll never wish you had less horsepower but God knows you might find yourself wishing you had more. I've been there and my first airplane is a 275hp 182.
I hate buying and selling things, so I try and buy once and learn the machine rather than try and match machines as my learning progresses.
I think the proper approach to training-- lots of hours with a good instructor-- will make the 185 a great choice. As a low time pilot you will never know that it doesn't fly like every other airplane.
I agree with Hammer that you would learn more about the mountains in an underpowered plane but I don't agree at all that a 185 would be a poor choice for that reason. You'll never wish you had less horsepower but God knows you might find yourself wishing you had more. I've been there and my first airplane is a 275hp 182.
I hate buying and selling things, so I try and buy once and learn the machine rather than try and match machines as my learning progresses.
I think the proper approach to training-- lots of hours with a good instructor-- will make the 185 a great choice. As a low time pilot you will never know that it doesn't fly like every other airplane.
Fri Jul 26, 2019 6:31 pm
- Sterlingmossy offline
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Fri Jul 26, 2019 6:39 pm
Re: Best residual value 185 vs Glassair Sportsman
I have quite a bit of time in a 182, I like the platform. I also did a mountain flying course in a 182 around Truckee. I also have time in a Citabria but in the midwest. I like the plane a lot. I have enjoyed it a lot as a tailwheel trainer but wonder how it would do at 6,500ft and 90 degrees. I really would like to buy the plane that I can grow into and get to know really well vs bounce from plane to plane.
- Sterlingmossy offline
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Fri Jul 26, 2019 8:34 pm
Re: Best residual value 185 vs Glassair Sportsman
Low HP and learn the air, or high HP and have more options...
I guess both approaches are valid, but only one of them works in every situation...unless you're burning aviation kerosene at 600 gallons per hour.
I flew a Cessna 140 across the Sierra Nevada's about a hundred times, often having to get above 13K to clear terrain and downslope winds, and I flew her at gross and then some all over Idaho, Utah, Nevada and California. Several times in order to make my next fuel stop I had to put on so much fuel that my service ceiling was literally 200 feet AGL, and I had another 5,000 vertical feet of terrain between me and my destination. That's not an exaggeration...that's the simple truth.
I got there by learning where air goes up and where it goes down and plotting my way forward with that in the forefront of my thinking, and that knowledge is simply unavailable to someone who has the option of pushing forward with the right hand while pulling back with the left. They could pull the throttle back and learn the air, but they won't.
Whether that's a course of learning you want to pursue is up to you, but there isn't a GA aircraft made that has the HP to compensate for not understand what air does in the mountains. Step up to military aircraft and you can get away with pure horse power, but not GA. Ever. If you learn to rely on displacement you will (eventually) get displaced on the timber-covered side of a mountain.
In all honesty I learned to fly in a 140 because that's what my budget allowed, and given the option I'd have probably bought something significantly more powerful. I have no words to express how glad I am that I didn't have that option. I'm not a hot stick by any stretch of the imagination, but I know more about air movement than almost any other pilot I've ever flown with, regardless of their hours or the planes they've flown or the certifications they hold.
I've been flying since 1995 and I've met exactly one CFI who I would allow to take control of the airplane in the mountains during a check flight if things went south. I honestly don't think that any of the others knew what was going on with the environment we were traveling through, though they knew everything about what was going on inside the cockpit.
Take it for what it's worth, which is about what you paid for it...
I guess both approaches are valid, but only one of them works in every situation...unless you're burning aviation kerosene at 600 gallons per hour.
I flew a Cessna 140 across the Sierra Nevada's about a hundred times, often having to get above 13K to clear terrain and downslope winds, and I flew her at gross and then some all over Idaho, Utah, Nevada and California. Several times in order to make my next fuel stop I had to put on so much fuel that my service ceiling was literally 200 feet AGL, and I had another 5,000 vertical feet of terrain between me and my destination. That's not an exaggeration...that's the simple truth.
I got there by learning where air goes up and where it goes down and plotting my way forward with that in the forefront of my thinking, and that knowledge is simply unavailable to someone who has the option of pushing forward with the right hand while pulling back with the left. They could pull the throttle back and learn the air, but they won't.
Whether that's a course of learning you want to pursue is up to you, but there isn't a GA aircraft made that has the HP to compensate for not understand what air does in the mountains. Step up to military aircraft and you can get away with pure horse power, but not GA. Ever. If you learn to rely on displacement you will (eventually) get displaced on the timber-covered side of a mountain.
In all honesty I learned to fly in a 140 because that's what my budget allowed, and given the option I'd have probably bought something significantly more powerful. I have no words to express how glad I am that I didn't have that option. I'm not a hot stick by any stretch of the imagination, but I know more about air movement than almost any other pilot I've ever flown with, regardless of their hours or the planes they've flown or the certifications they hold.
I've been flying since 1995 and I've met exactly one CFI who I would allow to take control of the airplane in the mountains during a check flight if things went south. I honestly don't think that any of the others knew what was going on with the environment we were traveling through, though they knew everything about what was going on inside the cockpit.
Take it for what it's worth, which is about what you paid for it...
Sat Jul 27, 2019 3:36 am
Re: Best residual value 185 vs Glassair Sportsman
Sterlingmossy wrote:Thank you both for your thoughts. Clearly I am new to all of this
Cheers
Driggs is great,
I have a good friend that lives in Victor and works at Teton Aviation part time giving glider rides among other things, when he isn't flying for Net Jets. If you are looking for instruction for that area (Probably a good idea) I am sure I could get some info on the CFI's there.
Pete
Sat Jul 27, 2019 5:12 am
Re: Best residual value 185 vs Glassair Sportsman
A Cessna 185 is a lot of airplane for someone of your experience. No doubt you CAN do so, the question is do you want to.
Your description of your mission is woefully lacking. So, fill in more blanks:
On your “average” mission, how many souls on board? Two, two and a couple kids? Or????
Are you planning to “camp”? If so, what’s your idea of “camping”? Are you one who takes everything you own and then some, or do you stick to basics? Or are you primarily interested in flightseeing, and overnight at lodges, etc?
All those kinds of things and more will define your mission.
I agree with Zane that the 185 and Glastar are entirely different categories of airplane.
If you decide to get into a high performance taildragger like the 185, you MUST find an instructor who really knows the airplane inside and out, who has lots of time working the plane, and who has plenty of time to conduct a thorough checkout with you. This should not be a quick five or supine hours and done deal.
Can it be done? Absolutely, but it’ll demand some work and time.
MTV
Your description of your mission is woefully lacking. So, fill in more blanks:
On your “average” mission, how many souls on board? Two, two and a couple kids? Or????
Are you planning to “camp”? If so, what’s your idea of “camping”? Are you one who takes everything you own and then some, or do you stick to basics? Or are you primarily interested in flightseeing, and overnight at lodges, etc?
All those kinds of things and more will define your mission.
I agree with Zane that the 185 and Glastar are entirely different categories of airplane.
If you decide to get into a high performance taildragger like the 185, you MUST find an instructor who really knows the airplane inside and out, who has lots of time working the plane, and who has plenty of time to conduct a thorough checkout with you. This should not be a quick five or supine hours and done deal.
Can it be done? Absolutely, but it’ll demand some work and time.
MTV
Sat Jul 27, 2019 5:37 am
Re: Best residual value 185 vs Glassair Sportsman
mtv wrote:A Cessna 185 is a lot of airplane for someone of your experience. No doubt you CAN do so, the question is do you want to.
Your description of your mission is woefully lacking. So, fill in more blanks:
On your “average” mission, how many souls on board? Two, two and a couple kids? Or????
- My wife and I is the average trip but we also, often, have 2 guests who want to see Yellowstone and tour the Teton range. I have been renting a 172XP & 182 for this.
Are you planning to “camp”? If so, what’s your idea of “camping”? Are you one who takes everything you own and then some, or do you stick to basics? Or are you primarily interested in flightseeing, and overnight at lodges, etc?
- I typically camp pretty light. 35lb pack. 1/2 nights. Would like to see the wilder backcountry.
My wife rode on the back of my motorcycle from Singapore to New Delhi so she is tough and a good camper.
All those kinds of things and more will define your mission.
I agree with Zane that the 185 and Glastar are entirely different categories of airplane.
I have also thought about getting a Kitfox or a Highlander to own and then renting a 182 when I need it.
If you decide to get into a high performance taildragger like the 185, you MUST find an instructor who really knows the airplane inside and out, who has lots of time working the plane, and who has plenty of time to conduct a thorough checkout with you. This should not be a quick five or supine hours and done deal.
Agreed
Can it be done? Absolutely, but it’ll demand some work and time.
MTV
- Sterlingmossy offline
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Sat Jul 27, 2019 6:01 am
Best residual value 185 vs Glassair Sportsman
I have a friend who is hemorrhaging money restoring an early 180. Like six figures...
He doesn't even have his tailwheel endorsement yet. Sounds crazy, right?
But you know what? He's HAPPY and EXCITED.
This is his hobby...his happy place.
Do whatever makes you most HAPPY and EXCITED to fly.
Of course be safe and don't get in over your head, get proper training, yada, yada...
If it was me, I'd get the Cessna but I'm super biased. I don't like plastic airplanes. Steel tube and fabric is best IMO!
Don't even bother with the financials of recuperating money from a future sale 10 years down the road. Buying and selling a small aircraft is the cheapest part of owning a small aircraft. Don't even try to keep track of what you spend. Know that it will cost you money no matter what you pick. How much one plane or the other will cost you is known only to the universe and to you after it's done. Too many variables to reliably even make a guess.
"I like a good story, well told. That is the reason I am sometimes forced to tell them myself." - Mark Twain
He doesn't even have his tailwheel endorsement yet. Sounds crazy, right?
But you know what? He's HAPPY and EXCITED.
This is his hobby...his happy place.
Do whatever makes you most HAPPY and EXCITED to fly.
Of course be safe and don't get in over your head, get proper training, yada, yada...
If it was me, I'd get the Cessna but I'm super biased. I don't like plastic airplanes. Steel tube and fabric is best IMO!
Don't even bother with the financials of recuperating money from a future sale 10 years down the road. Buying and selling a small aircraft is the cheapest part of owning a small aircraft. Don't even try to keep track of what you spend. Know that it will cost you money no matter what you pick. How much one plane or the other will cost you is known only to the universe and to you after it's done. Too many variables to reliably even make a guess.
"I like a good story, well told. That is the reason I am sometimes forced to tell them myself." - Mark Twain
Sat Jul 27, 2019 7:12 am
Re: Best residual value 185 vs Glassair Sportsman
Here is the real wildcard about personal aircraft values. If AOPA or Flying Magazine does an article about a particular model, the value spikes. If some wonk actor flies one in a movie, the value goes up for a much longer time, better the movie, longer the value holds. Golf player type aircraft, Bonanzas and the like, track value with the stock market. Aircraft that have some place in the commercial world 185's, 206's, Cherokee Six's and such have a floor to their value they will not go below. The golf type airplanes can free fall to where you cannot give them away for a couple of years, think Beechcraft Duke and Bonanzas.
So go fast aircraft can become ramp decorations in a poor economy, whereas the work aircraft, real work aircraft, always have a need and a price point they will always fetch.
So go fast aircraft can become ramp decorations in a poor economy, whereas the work aircraft, real work aircraft, always have a need and a price point they will always fetch.
Sat Jul 27, 2019 7:27 am
Re: Best residual value 185 vs Glassair Sportsman
Drive the 100 miles and go look at Husky's at the factory. Good start to folk who know the area.
- soaringhiggy offline
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Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:01 am
Re: Best residual value 185 vs Glassair Sportsman
Sterlingmossy wrote:mtv wrote:On your “average” mission, how many souls on board? Two, two and a couple kids? Or????
- My wife and I is the average trip but we also, often, have 2 guests who want to see Yellowstone and tour the Teton range. I have been renting a 172XP & 182 for this.
MTV
This is why defining your mission is important. If you feel it important to have the capability to fit four adults in the plane, then you can remove the Sportsman from the list. It is a 2+2 meaning it’s not a true four place. The back seats are really only suitable for kids.
Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:37 am
Re: Best residual value 185 vs Glassair Sportsman
If you mix in mission, purchase cost, operating expense, etc...
IMHO it'd be tough to beat a 180 or 182.
Why do you mention the 185 but not the 180?
Personally I'd rather have the 180.
IMHO it'd be tough to beat a 180 or 182.
Why do you mention the 185 but not the 180?
Personally I'd rather have the 180.
Cessna Skywagon -- accept no substitute!
Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:44 am
Re: Best residual value 185 vs Glassair Sportsman
I think you will have got it by now, but you are asking a completely irrelevant question about two very different airplanes. If you buy either well, and maintain them, they will retain current market value (which may change).
When I learnt to fly I knew nothing, but had a mentor I trusted. He told me to buy a 170 over a 140 as I would appreciate the space and load. I foolishly thought I would take my kids backcountry camping, but by the time I had the confidence and skills to do so they had left for university, and I knew that a four place plane is a two place and gear plane, at least at any significant Density Altitude.
But don't let anyone put you off, buy something and go fly lots.
When I learnt to fly I knew nothing, but had a mentor I trusted. He told me to buy a 170 over a 140 as I would appreciate the space and load. I foolishly thought I would take my kids backcountry camping, but by the time I had the confidence and skills to do so they had left for university, and I knew that a four place plane is a two place and gear plane, at least at any significant Density Altitude.
But don't let anyone put you off, buy something and go fly lots.
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