Building the Bearhawk Patrol in LSA Configuration

The April 2015 First Edition of Bearhawk Magazine has a great article by BCP member Jared Yates titled ” Bob Barrows – Bearhawk Aircraft Designer ” . There is a hint of building the Bearhawk Patrol in an LSA configuration. ( page 11)

“ Bob’s most recent design is the Bearhawk LSA. He wasn’t too motivated to build the LSA at first, since the Patrol filled his needs.” …

“Builders were asking for an airplane that would work as well as his other designs, but still meet the LSA rules so that they could enjoy the LSA benefits like the self-certifying medical. “ …

“Bob’s first solution was to encourage customers to build the Patrol, but to focus on keeping the plane as light as possible. The official max gross weight would be 1320, and the structural margins would be huge. “

Are there any Patrols flying as LSA ?

With the advent of new carbon fiber possibilities including propellers, lighter avionics, Oratex covering, and lighter power plants, is anyone in 2015 building an LSA configured Bearhawk Patrol ?

I’m not building anything…yet. I am just curious. Also, great article Jared. It was nice meeting you this past June at AOPA Fly In Frederick

Denali wrote:Building the Bearhawk Patrol in LSA Configuration

The April 2015 First Edition of Bearhawk Magazine has a great article by BCP member Jared Yates titled ” Bob Barrows – Bearhawk Aircraft Designer ” . There is a hint of building the Bearhawk Patrol in an LSA configuration. ( page 11)

“ Bob’s most recent design is the Bearhawk LSA. He wasn’t too motivated to build the LSA at first, since the Patrol filled his needs.” …

“Builders were asking for an airplane that would work as well as his other designs, but still meet the LSA rules so that they could enjoy the LSA benefits like the self-certifying medical. “ …

“Bob’s first solution was to encourage customers to build the Patrol, but to focus on keeping the plane as light as possible. The official max gross weight would be 1320, and the structural margins would be huge. “

Are there any Patrols flying as LSA ?

With the advent of new carbon fiber possibilities including propellers, lighter avionics, Oratex covering, and lighter power plants, is anyone in 2015 building an LSA configured Bearhawk Patrol ?

I’m not building anything…yet. I am just curious. Also, great article Jared. It was nice meeting you this past June at AOPA Fly In Frederick

Because you want flaps right? He told somebody that the flaps weigh 40 pounds. Bob is well known for building them light...in fact maybe nobody builds them as light as he does. I dunno really. You might save a few pounds with Oratex etc. The whole thing is really pretty iffy anyway. Carbon Cub makes an ersatz LSA with a 180 horse motor? Ha ha ha ha ha. I would love to see a weight and balance with two 170 pounders in it and full fuel. Still, who cares eh? It's all between you and your insurance company.

Miaster701 wrote

Carbon Cub makes an ersatz LSA with a 180 horse motor? Ha ha ha ha ha. I would love to see a weight and balance with two 170 pounders in it and full fuel. Still, who cares eh? It's all between you and your insurance company.

I know the Bearhawk LSA was in development for a good while before being introduced which is why I was wondering if a couple of Patrols had perhaps ever been built as LSAs, and how they’d managed the weight. Bob Barrows probably realized that a new clean sheet LSA would be the best way to go, dumping the flaps for the sake of weight.

An LSA plane with very limited payload to meet the 1320 lb. weight limit is really almost worthless. I had to chuckle when you mentioned the CubCrafters “ Ersatz LSA”. Since you quoted it, the CarbonCub SS with its Titan 340 180 HP engine has an empty weight of 896 lbs.

http://www.cubcrafters.com/carboncubss/specs

Assume 25 gallons of fuel & 5 qts oil (156 lbs) + 170 lb person + 896 lbs empty weight, that’s 1222 lbs total already which barely leaves 98 lbs left over for ?? I’m sure it makes for a great one man machine

The Bearhawk Patrol is such a sweet sweet plane. I saw Bob Barrows’ personal Patrol at the AOPA Flyin this past June. Beautiful plane.
I’d love to buy one. To quote Woody Allen:

If only God would give me some clear sign! Like making a large deposit in my name at a Swiss bank.”

Just saw this thread. I have been building a Patrol for many years. I don't have any wings yet but I have built all the welded steel components. All my parts are scratch built. I considered building it as an LSA but the Patrol fuselage is quite hefty and when I had it side by side with a PA18 fuselage I was repairing you could tell by lifting each one the cub was quite a bit lighter. I have never weighed the fuselage but if I had to be in an accident in a tube fuselage airplane the Patrol would be my choice for safety. My components are built strictly to plans with no free styling or beefing up that many seem to do.

Really seems like more of a question for the Bearhawk forum?

Battson wrote:Really seems like more of a question for the Bearhawk forum?

Except here you'll actually get a response [emoji57]

A guy who is on another forum is taking a different path: he's scratch building a LSA Bearhawk but putting flaps and a 0-320 on it. Going to be a heavy I'm thinking.

weight weight weight....


What would be the sanity in considering a 135 HP Rotax 915is at 185 pounds give or take in a Bearhawk Patrol being configured for LSA ?
Certainly doable but would it be practical and wise ?? I am just curious, I am not building anything.

From the BearHawk website: http://bearhawkaircraft.com/index.php/bearhawkpatrol

" The Bearhawk Patrol can accept engines from 115hp to 210hp. The prototype is powered by an O-360 Lycoming 180hp engine swinging a fixed pitch aluminum propeller "

What's wrong with the o-200 that Bob designed it for?

whee wrote:

Battson wrote:Really seems like more of a question for the Bearhawk forum?

Except here you'll actually get a response [emoji57]

I know what you're saying.

To give Bearhawkers credit where it's due, they do answer, just there's not that many of them

I guess I just meant that if anyone would know, whether a Patrol can be an LSA, they would probably be on that forum.

.
Tailwind5SW wrote:

What's wrong with the o-200 that Bob designed it for?

The Bearhawk LSA model.
http://bearhawkaircraft.com/index.php/bearhawklsa/lsaspecifications
It has a design GW of 1200-1500 pounds, and if at 1320 will be indeed an LSA

Taking the heavier and more robust Bearhawk Patrol model and building it up with a GW of 1320 maximum so as to qualify it in the LSA category is an interesting challenge. The Patrol has a design GW of 2000 pounds and is basically a non LSA experimental.
http://bearhawkaircraft.com/index.php/bearhawkpatrol/patrolspecifications

O-200 specs from wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continental_O-200

Performance:
Dry weight: 170.18 lb (77.19 kg) dry, without accessories
Power output: 100 hp (75 kW)
Specific power: 0.5 hp/in³ (23 kW/L)
Compression ratio: 7.0:1
Power-to-weight ratio: 0.56 hp/lb (920 W/kg)

So 135 HP at 185 +/- pounds for Rotax. 100 HP at 170 pound for Cont. I suppose both would work in a 1320 pound aircraft. The Rotax I am sure will cost a pretty penny though.

You are right, they are good guys that do share their knowledge and I really appreciate that. But sometimes it take days for anyone to respond.

For a brief moment I was going to build a LSA Patrol. Talked to Bob a bout it and it seemed doable but there were lots of compromises. If I racked my brain I could probly remember some of the conversation but my brain is tired so I think I'll just turn on Netflix and watch some "The 100."[emoji42]

The 100 hp is at stock compression ratio and rpm. Bob ups both so it's about 110hp

Denali wrote:...........An LSA plane with very limited payload to meet the 1320 lb. weight limit is really almost worthless. I had to chuckle when you mentioned the CubCrafters “ Ersatz LSA”. Since you quoted it, the CarbonCub SS with its Titan 340 180 HP engine has an empty weight of 896 lbs. .....Assume 25 gallons of fuel & 5 qts oil (156 lbs) + 170 lb person + 896 lbs empty weight, that’s 1222 lbs total already which barely leaves 98 lbs left over for ??....

As I recall, the FAA has a formula for LSA's. 1320# LSA limit minus 380# of people, minus .5 lbs of fuel per horsepower = maximum empty weight for a two-seater. For example:
gross wt ........................ 1320
2 people....................... -380
fuel: 80hp x .5 # ................-40
---------------------------------------
max empty wt.....................900

Remember, the Carbon Cub's CC-340 engine is rated at 80 hp continuous-- so using this formula, it is a legal 2-place LSA. A very clever end run around the rules IMHO. Of course, 40 pounds of fuel is only about 6-1/2 gallons which with this engine is only about 15 minutes more than the legally required 30 minutes reserve, so you're not gonna get very far. But the rules is the rules.

I believe the empty weight calculation only applies to factory built LSA. An experimental could weigh over 900lbs with 180 hp