About an hour and a half after landing back at my place after coming in from the east and just clearing the 9245' peak right behind my place (dead calm) and then cavorting down the slopes (wingovers was all, nothing too crazy) burning off altitude as quick as possible without excessive airspeed, (a more gradual throttled back descent while burning off about 3600' of altitude cools the engine off more then I like, not shock cooling I'm worried about with the liquid cooling, but incipient carb ice on the Rotax, just enough sometimes to cause a slight stumble when throttling up to land my uphill runway, no big deal and easily avoided), I got a visitor. A County Sheriff I had also made my usual upslope field landing at the highest point of the grazing ground above my place, now that the cattle are outa there it's all mine to play in (I have permission from my rancher neighbors, and it's right in my backyard), this is all routine when on short final to my place. It's a final little bit of fun before becoming a ground pounder again and it doesn't hurt a damn thing and keeps my skills sharp, and it's all perfectly legal.

As he got out of his rig, he asked me if a plane had just landed somewhere nearby a while ago, I told him it was none of his business and told him to get off my property.

No, not really! I said you bet, that was me, just coming back from breakfast in Wyoming. I learned a long time ago, any interaction with LEO is Yes Sir, No Sir time, and I have no problem with that, even when I'm in the right, their job is tough enough. It seems that a couple off duty deputies were somewhere above my place, hunting, and seeing the gyrations I was doing thought I "might be in trouble," In an excess of concern they called it in, which I appreciate. Now if they called it in because I scared off a deer they were drawing down on, tough titty, they were in my backyard, I LIVE HERE. I have nothing to base that on, let's just assume they were looking out for me, I'm cool with that.

Whatever, the deputy was a real nice guy (and at least 6'5" tall), about the age of my grandkids, and we had a nice visit after we cleared up what had just happened (nothing really.) He also ride bikes so that led into a long discussion on that subject. It was a positive experience and no problem at all, and it gave me the chance to tell him that any calls in the future about an airplane "in trouble" in the area will no doubt, most likely anyway, be me. In over 35 years of flying this area, (where the gen public can't conceive of an airstrip) this is the first time this has happened, frankly I'm surprised it took so long, especially with everyone having cell phones now. I did mention I have my crane yard in town right next door to the Sheriff headquarters (establishing my local businessman creds, can't hurt) and how long I have been flying (longer then he's been alive, almost double from the looks of him), that didn't hurt either. Anyway, at least I didn't get cuffed, stuffed and booked, and I had a chance once again to enlighten a non flier about what we do. I thought of asking if he wanted to check out what was in the hangar, and maybe ask if I could get a picture of him writing me a ticket or maybe handcuffing me in front of the plane, but didn't. A positive aviation related encounter with LEO every couple decades is a track record I am proud of, all things considered.

He probably wanted to smell your breath. A couple of years ago some ambitious fellow flew several miles over marshland north of San Francisco bay at a few feet off the deck. Problem was, when the sheriff arrived at the airport he was drunker than a skunk. He claimed he hit the bottle after he landed. I have no idea how it all turned out in the end but it made the papers in a negative way. Not good.

Sounds like a fun place to live.

I landed a while back at my strip on 34 left. with that approach I come in over the highway. A concerned driver called in that an airplane had crashed. By the time the responders got there I had the plane inside. They noticed black smoke a few mile away and headed over there to find some hippies burning tires.

Tim

Great thread.

A few years ago I flew 2 laps round Grand Coulie Dam and landed at nearby Banks Lake.

My nurse and I were hanging out at the water's edge next to the plane when we see flashing police lights coming down the dirt road to where we were parked.

This strip is nowhere anyone goes to...

Turns out a do-gooder in 'town' was panicked we were going to destroy the largest dam in the country with our 1,500 pound Maule and called the sherrif.

A quick explanation to the good LEO and a review of the FAR's and that I was safe and legal I offered him a ride and we were good to go.

LEOs have been very helpful in my precautionaries and forced landings. No real problem with Fire Dept, but you want to stay with the aircraft until they can be talked out of hosing it down and tramping around damaging crops.

That's good it was a no big deal. Just making sure you were ok. Maybe he was sniffing around a little at first, but seems pretty apparent he was pretty laid back about the whole thing once you explained a little. Some buddies of mine were up in Nebraska landing on the north platte sand bars. State Partrol stopped to see if they were ok, they explained what they were doing, he laughed and said he had never seen that done before.. watched them take off and that was that. I like hearing stories like that.

My buddy mowed a strip for me in his back yard. Short uphill rough pasture landing.. nearest house is probably 1000ft to the strip, but there are several places in the area. I land there here and there, never heard a word.

My buddy and I took his helio courier in there one day and someone called the fire department. I have no idea why - where we parked, you could see the plane from any of the neighbors houses, and the main road, not to mention we were all standing around it BS'ing for 30-45min... some of the other neighbors even wandered down to talk about it (thinking the whole thing was awesome!).

I don't mind people looking out for other people either, but if there is clearly not a plane crash (no fire, no smoke, no crunch, engine still running in the air and so on...), please don't waste the volunteers/FD/first responders/police etc's. time ya know!

It's pretty easy to get one's feathers ruffled when dealing with LEO's, especially when you're completely in the right, but have to prove it.

But keep this in mind: it's an incredibly unfair interaction on both sides. The LEO might have all the power, but they also have to approach every person and situation without any idea of what they're walking into.

LEO's arrive in a official vehicle, wearing a uniform. At a glance everyone knows exactly what their objective and purpose is: they are there to investigate law breaking and apprehend violators.

But they show up knowing NOTHING about the people they deal with. Every interaction is done in the dark with no idea what the person's motives, background, or intentions are. And folks think "well look at me...it should be obvious I'm no threat or criminal", which is a natural reaction. But the first thing good criminals learn how to do is to portray themselves exactly that way.

So good LEO's approach everyone the same: as potential threats to their life who are obfuscating the crime they just committed. That's the only way it's possible to walk into one situation after another where their intentions are obvious and clear, and the other person's intentions are a complete mystery, and live to retire.

Some LEO's pull that off with more tact and diplomacy than others, and some are as abrasive as a stiff wire wheel on a angle grinder. But all of them have the same objective: do their job in such a way as to ensure they get go home at shift end, rather than camp out on a stainless steel table that drains into a garbage disposal.

There are few things more irritating than an arrogant or tactless cop, and I deeply sympathize with anyone who has to deal with one. But being indignant that you were suspected of wrongdoing isn't logical...that's what cops do. It's their job...how they catch criminals, which makes our society a better one in which to live.

As for "innocent until proven guilty"...that's the bailiwick of the courts. Law enforcement has no obligation to view the world that way, and couldn't do their job if they did.

Hammer wrote:It's pretty easy to get one's feathers ruffled when dealing with LEO's, especially when you're completely in the right, but have to prove it.

But keep this in mind: it's an incredibly unfair interaction on both sides. The LEO might have all the power, but they also have to approach every person and situation without any idea of what they're walking into.

LEO's arrive in a official vehicle, wearing a uniform. At a glance everyone knows exactly what their objective and purpose is: they are there to investigate law breaking and apprehend violators.

But they show up knowing NOTHING about the people they deal with. Every interaction is done in the dark with no idea what the person's motives, background, or intentions are. And folks think "well look at me...it should be obvious I'm no threat or criminal", which is a natural reaction. But the first thing good criminals learn how to do is to portray themselves exactly that way.

So good LEO's approach everyone the same: as potential threats to their life who are obfuscating the crime they just committed. That's the only way it's possible to walk into one situation after another where their intentions are obvious and clear, and the other person's intentions are a complete mystery, and live to retire.

Some LEO's pull that off with more tact and diplomacy than others, and some are as abrasive as a stiff wire wheel on a angle grinder. But all of them have the same objective: do their job in such a way as to ensure they get go home at shift end, rather than camp out on a stainless steel table that drains into a garbage disposal.

There are few things more irritating than an arrogant or tactless cop, and I deeply sympathize with anyone who has to deal with one. But being indignant that you were suspected of wrongdoing isn't logical...that's what cops do. It's their job...how they catch criminals, which makes our society a better one in which to live.

As for "innocent until proven guilty"...that's the bailiwick of the courts. Law enforcement has no obligation to view the world that way, and couldn't do their job if they did.

Well said, spot on.

I agree with Hammer. I was happy my enemy was either in uniform as well or I could tell from his tracers he meant to kill me. And he was a good soldier.

On the court end I disagree with the accused being called defendant and the prosecutor being called the people. We are all the people in democratic court. I had to watch a procecutor send an innocent kid to jail for three years for the murder of my brother knowing, by DNA evidence, that another was guilty. The other got complete immunity in a plea deal and the Missouri Supreme Court released the kid.

Why. The procecutor wanted a perfect record and the kid was from the wrong side of the tracks.

I hope I didn't come off as being indignant with the Sheriff in my accounting of the incident, not at all! He did good.... real non threatening or intimidating, he had good bedsides manners that will serve him well in his career, if my encounter with him is any judge. My first thought actually was "hell, I thought it was too late in the year to need a burn permit," as I was burning branches. Just a few nights ago, I passed a state trooper that had pulled over a car and was in the process of making his initial walkup to the puller overed. Wow, that takes balls, I'm afraid if I had to do that I'd have my weapon out and trained on the driver until I knew they were OK, for sure they have a tough job and deserve our respect and I have always given it to them.

Even when, decades ago, like almost 5, when I was caught doing something unrelated to flying, "wrong". I never had any problems with LEO. "Caught me fair and square" is all I said, and then laughed, and he laughed, and it was all good. It's legal now in a lot of states anyway

My main thought was I had to wonder what would have happened if I wasn't right there and able to clear up the issue by telling him it was business as usual at the Skyline Airpark, I was glad to be able to resolve it in seconds. Maybe if we hadn't talked he would have felt duty bound to call out the CAP? Maybe the next days local rag's headline would have "missing plane" in the headline? Probably not, as now that I think about it, he mentioned seeing my windsock when he first pulled into my place, and had pretty much already figured out there was no problem.

It did give me the opportunity, to mention that though I am not a CAP kind of guy, don't want to go to meetings etc., but if the local LEO ever needs a hurry up, right now, pair of eyes in the sky (and the weathers good and I'm not working....), give me a call as I believe I know the local nooks and crannys of our mountainous terrain better then about anybody. We had a missing hunter who had to overnite just a couple weeks ago, about 3 miles from my strip, maybe, just maybe, I could have been of assistance. But, I'm pretty sure the county lawyers and their liability insurance geeks would squash that idea, and I understand how that works, nonetheless i put a bug in his ear about it

Not a LEO story, but similar. I live on an airpark and am a part owner in a T-6. One day I went flying in the six and did a fast low approach over the runway with the smoke on. Then pitched up and landed out of the pattern. It was fun. My backdoor neighbor, who is the local VFD Fire Chief, came over as I was putting the airplane away and says, "Well, it sure looks like you didn't crash", I said "Actually it was one of my nicer landings, got lucky today." He said we just got a report that you had crashed on the runway from a passer by. We both laughed at that.

gunny

courierguy wrote:<snip>

It did give me the opportunity, to mention that though I am not a CAP kind of guy, don't want to go to meetings etc., but if the local LEO ever needs a hurry up, right now, pair of eyes in the sky (and the weathers good and I'm not working....), give me a call as I believe I know the local nooks and crannys of our mountainous terrain better then about anybody. We had a missing hunter who had to overnite just a couple weeks ago, about 3 miles from my strip, maybe, just maybe, I could have been of assistance. But, I'm pretty sure the county lawyers and their liability insurance geeks would squash that idea, and I understand how that works, nonetheless i put a bug in his ear about it

I did a lot of that for the local LEOs in Laramie for several years. Because of the size of the town, and the nature of my law practice in the early years, I got to know all of the LEOs pretty well. At the time, there were only 23 attorneys in Laramie, 28 officers on the LAPD, about a dozen officers in the SO, and maybe half a dozen with the Highway Patrol. Although I was often on "the other side", that didn't stop me from making friends with most of them (not all--some insisted on being stiff-necked when dealing with attorneys).

So for instance, when the Sheriff would get a call because of a lost hunter, I'd often get a call to do an air search, rather than them going through the mish-mash of calling out the CAP, and I'd do it if at all possible.

That all came to a screeching halt, though, when one of the deputies was killed on a lost hiker search, on a day I couldn't fly and another pilot was on their volunteer list who was willing to take on the mountains without any previous experience. They had just found the hikers, had reported that by radio, but then went back to pinpoint their location at way too low an altitude and clipped a tree. I attended the deputy's funeral--I'd known him well; he was a nice kid still learning the ropes after being with the SO for only a couple of years.

Cary

courierguy wrote:I hope I didn't come off as being indignant with the Sheriff in my accounting of the incident...

You didn't! I just know how hot and bothered a lot of people get on the subject of law enforcement and their "right" to do what they want without being "hassled". I think if more people knew both sides of the interaction story they might be a little less uppity about it is all.

Cary wrote:That all came to a screeching halt, though, when one of the deputies was killed on a lost hiker search, on a day I couldn't fly and another pilot was on their volunteer list who was willing to take on the mountains without any previous experience. They had just found the hikers, had reported that by radio, but then went back to pinpoint their location at way too low an altitude and clipped a tree. I attended the deputy's funeral--I'd known him well; he was a nice kid still learning the ropes after being with the SO for only a couple of years.

Cary

A similar accident happened in 2003 near Republic, WA, also in mountainous terrain. Witnesses said the aircraft was flying just above the treetops when it banked sharply and descended to the ground in a "twist and a dive". Both the pilot and a deputy on board were killed. They were in search mode for a missing person who, I later learned, was found the next day. The NTSB Probable Cause says the airplane stalled while flying on a north heading, perhaps to avoid power transmission lines that ran east - west near their flight path. The pilot lost control, and the rest is history. Both occupants of the aircraft suffered fatal head injuries. FWIW, the aircraft was equipped with only lap belts..

PapernScissors wrote:

Cary wrote:That all came to a screeching halt, though, when one of the deputies was killed on a lost hiker search, on a day I couldn't fly and another pilot was on their volunteer list who was willing to take on the mountains without any previous experience. They had just found the hikers, had reported that by radio, but then went back to pinpoint their location at way too low an altitude and clipped a tree. I attended the deputy's funeral--I'd known him well; he was a nice kid still learning the ropes after being with the SO for only a couple of years.

Cary

A similar accident happened in 2003 near Republic, WA, also in mountainous terrain. Witnesses said the aircraft was flying just above the treetops when it banked sharply and descended to the ground in a "twist and a dive". Both the pilot and a deputy on board were killed. They were in search mode for a missing person who, I later learned, was found the next day. The NTSB Probable Cause says the airplane stalled while flying on a north heading, perhaps to avoid power transmission lines that ran east - west near their flight path. The pilot lost control, and the rest is history. Both occupants of the aircraft suffered fatal head injuries. FWIW, the aircraft was equipped with only lap belts..

I have no idea what the CAP teaches for air search altitudes, but I never thought it made sense to get too low. It increases the danger exponentially while narrowing the field of view considerably. I don't think I ever did any of the SO's searches lower than 500' AGL, and mostly it was higher.

Cary

While instructing for the Gallup Squadron of the NM CAP, I taught 500' search altitude for the reasons Cary mentioned. We were sometimes closer laterally to the ridge. 200' pipeline altitude was necessary to be able to read milepost numbers and see oil stains, survey markers, etc. Also, while lower than 500', the rate of closure makes wider than the 50' right of way too much area to cover effectively

At low altitude, reconnaissance should be done at cruise. Slowing is just too dangerous, especially in level turns. We can pitch up to slow down to make steep turns safe when we allow the nose to go down naturally in the turn. The pitch up at cruise also gives us enough altitude to safely allow the nose to go down in the turn. My big problem with the CAP was that many of the instructors assumed that low level work could be conducted exactly the same as high altitude work. Sure, it can. But it can't be done both safely and effectively that way.. A safe level turn will require re-engagement of any specific target. The level turn, to be safe, must go too wide to maintain contact effectively.

CAP does not fly below 1000 feet for searches except to verify a visual they might drop down but still maintain over 500'.

That seems safe enough, Troy, with level turns. Visual reconnaissance at 1,000 is pretty difficult. Discrimination between trash and broken aircraft is difficult. A descending return to target, for a better look, would be plenty safe at any bank. Time on target can be limited without the climbing and slowing of the pitch up portion of the energy management turn. Potential gravity thrust of altitude translates quickly into Vne concerns.

Electronics, which I am unfamiliar with, may make the band width of visual reconnaissance less important. I have found chewing off to wide a band, by being too high, to be ineffective.

In Washington State the Washington Department of Transportation/Aviation Division is the lead aerial search agency. Their doctrine says 1000' AGL and 1/4 mile grid (on gentle terrain) and similar tight spacing on contours. 500' is still the "drop in and get a closer look" floor. They also have GPS tracking equipment that provides the IC with AGL and ground track data so it's pretty easy to tell if an aircraft flew over the ground (but still tough to see if 'looking' was 'seeing'). Most recent unaided visual searches haven't been really successful. It's tough to see into dense forests on steep ground unless the scanner person is looking in exactly the right place at exactly the right time with good light. FWIW, pilots aren't supposed to be looking for the accidents, their job is to fly the airplane. I think that's a good plan and great separation of duties.

Thread drift at its finest!