dirtstrip wrote:Whee,
I do not have experience in this situation but EAA is the best source.

Relevant Q&A from EAA newsletter.
http://www.595.eaachapter.org/documents ... 202012.pdf

EAA: Phase one testing expires twelve months from date of issue or you must have it reinspected.
http://www.sportair.com/articles/Rules% ... lding.html

It is my understanding that the 12 months limit is based on the first flight.... So, if the FAA or a DAR blesses your bugsmasher 10,000 experimental, you have 12 months to make your first flight.... After that all other details are made by the owner and is just a log book entry....

Whee................. If this plane has not completed the 40 hours of phase 1 on those years. maybe you should do some soul searching on why.. . Still might be a great deal though so don't give up on it till the details don't add up...

Stol wrote:It is my understanding that the 12 months limit is based on the first flight.... So, if the FAA or a DAR blesses your bugsmasher 10,000 experimental, you have 12 months to make your first flight.... After that all other details are made by the owner and is just a log book entry....

I hope this is the case. The plane has made a few flights.

Stol wrote:Whee................. If this plane has not completed the 40 hours of phase 1 on those years. maybe you should do some soul searching on why.. . Still might be a great deal though so don't give up on it till the details don't add up...

I know why it hasn't and it doesn't concern me. There are some things that do concern me but I have someone I trust lined up to take a look if I decide to make an offer.

You have to do a condition inspection anyway because it has to be done within the last 12 months or it cannot be flown, so I assume the plane is grounded for lack of the inspection. Phase One does not provide an exception to that and the inspection is one you would not be qualified to do so you will pay someone anyway unless the builder has the Repairman Certificate and is willing to take that responsibility to sign off for another's aircraft if sold.

On the issue of the FAA inspection, it seems that scheduling the inspection is really the only issue but the DAR could work and expense shouldn't be prohibitive. Mine was around 300 and he was there within the month. What else am I missing here?

From the EAA workshop article I cited it refers to the Operating Limitations expiring at twelve months, not the airworthiness certificate. As you said, the certificate would stay in force once the permanent one is issued.

From the article:

Flight Testing
.... when your aircraft is inspected you will be given a copy of operating limitations. Usually, the inspector will issue Phase 1 and Phase 2 at the time of inspection providing you with 2 sets of operating limitations; flight testing and subsequent operation. ..... Phase 1 operating limitations have an expiration time of 12 months from date of issue. All flight testing must be completed within that time period or the aircraft must be reinspected. One of the restrictions, in FAR 91.319, that is interesting is that in order to have the Phase 1 restrictions lifted you must prove that the aircraft has no hazardous operating characteristics and that it is controllable throughout its normal range of speeds and maneuvers.

This article is dated 1997, I would make the call to the EAA to see what more they can add. The discussion will remain between you them without involving FAA. These guys have been enormous help to me.

I guess I don't know what it means when the operating limitations expires. I couldn't find any other reference to back that statement. I suppose I ought to call up the EAA.

The builder said he would do the condition inspections, he does have the repairman's certificate for it, for as long as I own the airplane. Pretty good deal. Think I'll start another thread to see what people are paying for condition inspections just in case.

The DAR I spoke with about another project a while back said he charges $275 plus expenses; travel and at least 1 night in the hotel. That puts it close to $500. While not prohibitive it is still a fair amount of money to repeat something that has already been done.

whee wrote:

dirtstrip wrote:EAA: Phase one testing expires twelve months from date of issue or you must have it reinspected.
http://www.sportair.com/articles/Rules% ... lding.html

I've been looking into this but can't find any referance to support this. In fact the only thing I have seen is that the Airworthiness certificate should say "unlimited" meaning it is good forever and that both the Phase 1 and Phase 2 operating limitations are listed with the Cert. That would make me think the Cert in good forever regardless of the plane being in Phase 1 or 2.

Your thinking is correct Whee. That EAA article that says Flight testing must be completed in one year or the operating limitations expire was written 1997. That may or may not have been the case back then or the author may have just been confused.

whee wrote:In fact the only thing I have seen is that the Airworthiness certificate should say "unlimited" meaning it is good forever and that both the Phase 1 and Phase 2 operating limitations are listed with the Cert. That would make me think the Cert in good forever regardless of the plane being in Phase 1 or 2.

I think that's right - but I'm not sure if you get an unlimited AB airworthiness cert until after the 40 hours is done? If I have my details right? (I think our rules are similar?). To start with your flying experimentally on an Ex-AB cert, for test flying only, which may not be unlimited and definitely has strings attached. Maybe different in the USA?

Can you land at other airports that are within the phase 1 testing area?

Yes, you can land within a 75 mi radius of some declared center. I've had them declare a town or an airport. It doesn't have to be where the plane is kept either. My FAA dude hooked me up way off center so i could go grab a $20 burger.
It should say something about the area on the paperwork.

wyomingiswindy wrote:Yes, you can land within a 75 mi radius of some declared center. I've had them declare a town or an airport. It doesn't have to be where the plane is kept either. My FAA dude hooked me up way off center so i could go grab a $20 burger.
It should say something about the area on the paperwork.

You got lucky.......

Back in 2004 when I called the FAA FSFO office in Casper to schedule my airworthiness inspection I was told by both Bruce Hansen and Mike Maglioni that they do NOT inspect experimentals. They told me there is only one DAR permitted to do inspections here in Wyoming... His name is Tim Micus and is/was the shop superintendent at Hawkins and Powers in Greybull Wy.... He flew over to Jackson in a 182 and spent 5 hours going over my plane, he had me remove most, if not all the inspection panels, quizzed me on my calcs for the weight and balance and looked my plane over REAL close... It turned out he was building a street rod Ford Mustang and was building a 347 cu in stroker motor too... We hit it off good and he did sign off my toy with ............ A VERY small leash for my test area.. 30NM, no leaving the state and avoid populated areas.... That pretty much limited me to flying from Jackson Hole airport and no other place since the next airport is greater then 30 miles, except for Alpine Wy... So I spent hours and hours circling the valley here. Knock on wood, to this day I have not had to make an OFF AIRPORT landing.. The inspection cost me 500 bucks and even though on face value it sounds high, I consider it money WELL spent... YMMV....

Every FSDO has a different interpretation of the regulations and every DAR in each FSDO area has a different intrepretation of their FSDO's intreperation of the regulations.

When I moved in the middle of phase one testing I called the new FSDO to get a new test area. He said, okay I'll give you a 300 NM radius just stay outside of Canadian air space. I said, wow, thats a big test area for a 85 mph airplane. He said thats the standard test area size. I said okay. When my new operating limitations came in the mail the test area was A 100 nm radius. Can anyone top that?

Mine stretched the entire length of Northern CA but it was only about 30 miles wide which kept me in the valley, away from the mountains and Sacramento and Beale. It was about 90 miles long though if I recall.

Thanks for all the help guys. Pretty sure the area is a 40mile radius around the current airport. Planning to just fly off the time there when the deal is done.

Went and visited the plane last week. Looked through some of the paper work and didn't see any operating limitations; special airworthiness cert, W&B, and the registration were there. Didn't ask to see the logs. I did ask about the operating limitations and the test area but the guy said non were given. This isn't the first plane he has built so he has been thought it before. He said the DAR just told him to stay close and not to cross any mountains then signed the airworthiness cert and handed to him.

I don't have any time in type and I didn't want to wreck the plane but I took it out and taxied around with it. Took it down the runway with the tail in the air. Man I really wanted to fly it but I used better judgement and didn't. Hopefully soon. I plan to just fly off the 40 hours at it's current location then fly it home.

Done deal? Did you buy it?

Not yet. Have to sell the Luscombe first. Guy said he isn't in a hurry and has no problem waiting. Handshake was good enough for both of us.

Cool deal!!

Not trying to be a naysayer..but...if there are no operating limitations...where is it documented that this airplane needs to be flight tested for 40 hours? That is a huge red flag to me. Something isn't adding up if this is regestered Experimental Amataure Built.

It is defiantly something I am going to take a closer look at but the registration says it is a EAB and the owner has the repairmens cert.

How important is it to have the operating limitations?

Whee there is a lot more to the operating limitations than just the testing area. Mine was 2 or 3 pages of stuff and is part of the Arrow paperwork required in every airplane.

Spend 10 bucks and get the CD that has all the info on it that the FAA has for this plane. Thats what I had to do for mine as all reaconds were lost in a home fire. Turns out the operatining limitations for my Avid are for a "motor glider".. I am guessing the DAR NEVER flew an Avid LOL. These light, high drag planes are anything BUT a motor glider.

Worst case is you will have to have it re-inspected and get a new phase one started. This works strictly onthe honor system though and people have been known to accidenatly leave the master switch on over night thereby leaving the hobbs running...