I completely agree with Hammer and others on the utility of learning to fly a low-powered airplane in the mountains. No doubt I am biased since this is how I learned to fly--incidentally out of Gunnison in a 85-hp J-3. I also think that 29singlespeed reached the right conclusion pretty quickly that something in the 85-100hp range isn't going to be a great commuter (which I read to mean there is some pressure to get to the destination within some reasonable timeframe).

A story from a few weeks ago. I was out for a quick camping trip with another forum member, RC5280. After a night of camping in Salida and a day of exploring the San Luis Valley, RC5280 was headed back to the Front Range for work and I decided to go to Gunnison for the rest of the weekend to see family. I left Leach and within a few miles found a jamming thermal being kicked off of a dry center pivot field. I managed to find its core and rode it circling up to about 10,500 feet. North Pass is a little over 10,000 feet so I congratulated myself on using the natural lift in the valley to climb to cruise altitude and pointed my nose west towards the pass. Well, that must have been the only lift anywhere west of the Sangres. Even though the day was beautiful and happy small cumulus dotted the sky, the 15-knot westerly winds aloft were creating persistent sink on the west side of the valley and down the Saguache Creek drainage. I hunted and pecked for lift but still found myself low against terrain and bailing out down-drainage.

Here I am hunting for ridge lift West of Saguache:



I managed to work south along the northern flank of the La Garita Mountains and found a couple windward slopes and rock outcrops that got me back up to 10,500. I thought maybe I could work south of North and Cochetopa passes and sneak over the Cochetopa Hills, which is a ridge that runs SW/NE. Nope. As soon as I got close I hit sink that I couldn't outclimb. In the picture below I am looking east and away from the pass and sinking towards those unfriendly-looking rocks at about 500fpm. I'd been at it for about an hour and a half and really only had enough fuel at this point to slink back to Leach.



I guess my point is this: I know the area well and am comfortable using natural lift to reach my objective. But, on that afternoon there was no way that this pilot was going to make Gunnison in that plane. A more experienced hunter of rising air might have found a way, but I burned all my fuel exhausting the possibilities I could see. Turning around was easy since I was just out recreating, but if I had a job or other pressing obligation on the other side of the hill or some get-home-itis, the choice might have been tougher. Now, I know that Moab is pretty much all downhill from Gunnison. But, unless you are going to fly directly over the Black Canyon you still need 10,000+ to cross Black Mesa. Fun trip when the atmosphere is cooperating, but a low-powered plane isn't a reliable way to connect those dots in my opinion.

Incidentally, after being defeated by my lee-to-windward pass crossing attempt I decided to return to Salida for another night of camping and local beer sampling. I departed Leach around 5:00p.m. and headed towards the thermal that had been so productive for me earlier in the afternoon. Dead. It had already shut off and the entire valley was under subsidence. I skimmed eastward across the sparsely-populated valley floor hoping that I would find lift along the lower reaches of the Sangres. Overdevelopment had set in, though, and the southern buttress of the Sangres was covered in shadow. Smooth flying, but no lift. "Hmmm...might be renting a cabin at Hooper for the night," I thought. But before giving up I thought I would fly north to where the sun still shone on the west face of the mountains and the valley floor. There I encountered widespread, smooth lift. I passed a dozen hawks on my way to Poncha Pass, where I crossed over a high saddle above the pass proper and into the lee shadow where I traded my 500fpm up for 1000fpm down all the way to pattern altitude at KANK.

Riding the lift along the Sangres:





Glamor shot from earlier in the day at Hooper:



Anyway...this was probably way more of an essay than anybody wanted to read. But, it was one of the most spectacular days of flying a low-powered airplane in the mountains that I have had in a long time. I'm just glad I could follow the winds and didn't have to be anywhere!

great info. what is the useful load that most folks see on their 140s? According to wikipedia...1450 gross and 890 empty. How accurate is that?

Felix,

Thanks for the good story about how it can go, or not. I commuted to Santa Fe for drill but didn't always make it back to Tohatchi on time. Margie and I made Denver for Thanksgiving and Christmas a while but she shut that down after too many interrupted schedules.

I enjoyed the interrupted schedules of being young and now being old and retired.

Jim

Mojave Flyer wrote:great info. what is the useful load that most folks see on their 140s? According to wikipedia...1450 gross and 890 empty. How accurate is that?

890 is probably close if the airplane is bone stock, no radios, stock fabric wings, etc. Mine had stock C-85, converted metalized wings and a few added radios, xponder, shoulder harness, interior, and was a heavy 1,000 lbs! It was a real dog on climb out maybe because of the cruise prop it had. Flew really nice but I was bored with it quickly. It also felt too fast when landing, 70mph and it didn’t really flare, it plopped onto the runway, I could never get over that about it, it felt real mechanical Landing it. I would never take it west unless I repitched the prop to a climb pitch. I sold it and bought a J-3 again. Much better performer climbing and landing compared to the 140 other then the cruise speed but that’s not the point in a Cub.

As the pilot of an O-200 powered Citabria, I can wholly agree with all the comments (Hammer, Contact, etc.) about how it's a lot of fun, and a real challenge when you are flying in anything higher than "mole hill" terrain. It teaches you a lot, and sometimes humbles you as well. You pretty much have to do everything right, and the weather has to cooperate.

But the OP was discussing commuting to work every day in that airplane. To me, that opens up another whole kettle of fish. In my opinion (worth every cent you're paying for it – nothing!), the mix of possible get-there-itis and mountain flying in an "underpowered" VFR-only airplane would not be a good thing. Sometimes, landing and waiting out the weather is the best option. As my old flight school instructor often said to me: "Don't let your ego write checks your ass can't cash."

Worth 2 cents Jim, and weather always needs reasonable deference. Finding wind strong enough and at an angle to the ridge/valley system that leads up to the pass is generally the problem going to a westerly destination. I was seldom stopped by weather in Southwest Colorado and North New Mexico both commuting and pipelining. Just delayed a bit. I used the layup method because I could land many places in the desert or high mountain parks on long strait roads with no poles or with wide sholders.

Hot and still, while uncommon, can be a performance killer. Compare the climb performance of most small airplanes to ridge lift close to the ridge in normal afternoon winds or to thermal lift. Going East, ridge lift is usually good. Mountain wave.

Engine power is fair in cold air. Heat and wind energy are more than adequate most summer days. It is just getting everything lined up and using all energy available.

thx of the response AKJurnee.

I have a 120 project, 1016 pounds ew on scales, weighted by previous owner a couple of years before I purchased it while still flying. Has metalized wings, full heavy repaint over old paint, vinyl interior including headliner, old heavy electrical system, oil filter. Doesn't leave much useful. Fabric wings and a cloth interior with only one thin coat of paint would probably get it to the low 900's.

Tim

ps: If you check the 120/140 club form they will tell you 930 or so if they are honest

I apologize in advance for talking about Luscombe when ya'll are talking Cessna. Also, I know 29er has made the decision to wait and buy something bigger. Shoulda never sold that cool 182

Out of curiosity I looked up the route from Gunnision to Moab and there was nothing that would give me any pause about making that commute in my old Luscombe. But based on the experiences shared here my plane must have had a heavy sprinkling of fairy dust and/or I was too comfortable being close to terrain. I never got rejected from a destination because I couldn't get over terrain, but Idaho Isn't as tall as CO (but DAs do get over 10K around here) and I'm pretty patient. I could share various stories about high DAs, clearing tall ranges while hot and heavy, and working the air to get where I was going but I don't think it would help. The short answer is yes, a 120/140 or similar can successfully be flown in the mountains.

100mph, 4gph of mogas and 511lbs of useful seems like a decent experience building commuter for that short of a commute.

Whee,

I liked the Luscombe too, from the right seat. Never got used to stick in left hand. Enjoyed teaching in it. Also a good mountain airplane.

Mojave Flyer wrote:great info. what is the useful load that most folks see on their 140s? According to wikipedia...1450 gross and 890 empty. How accurate is that?

I think that the typical C120/140 is (like most airplanes) a fair amount heavier than the "book weight".
A friend of mine is a real fanatic about keeping airplanes light, his nickname is some quarters is "Fat Free".
He bought a C120 years ago, stripped the paint off & polished the exterior, gutted the interior,
shitcanned the elctrical system, etc. Don't recall what it weighed when he started, but it was right around 850 when he was done.

Let me start by saying I have no 120/140 experience other than one flight in my regular CFII's 140, just before its tired engine was replaced. When I took it off of KFNL (Fort Collins/Loveland, nka Northern Colorado Regional Airport, NoCo or NorCo for short), eking out 200 fpm was about all it could do, on a warm day with DAs probably in the 7500-8000' range. But it was sure fun! Very enjoyable airplane.

While I've flown some pretty high powered airplanes over the mountains, my more recent mountain experience has been in my 180hp P172D. With a full load, such as when I'm going camping, it's not a spectacular performer; with just me and dog aboard and half tanks, it's pretty darned good, ordinarily. That's why I could safely take off from Leadville some years ago, with a 12,100' DA reported on the AWOS, because I was running light. But that wouldn't have gotten me over the ridges to the Front Range, had I not had some understanding of flying under-powered airplanes in the mountains--when you have to cross a 12,000' ridge with some safety margin on a warm day in which that ridge's DA is probably close to 14,500', that means getting up higher than the engine alone can do. It means either ride the currents, or forgetaboutit and find a place to overnight, leaving in the coolth of the morning.

I think any under-powered airplane is just fine to learn mountain flying in. I also think it's just fine for going places in the mountains, as long as you have the time to play around and aren't in any hurry to get somewhere, much like Felix related.

Getting somewhere in a small GA airplane always requires a Plan B anyway, but flying an under-powered airplane in the mountains requires several alternate plans, B, C, D, maybe E and F, too. And often enough, that means not getting where you want to go as soon as you want to get there. Laying over, waiting things out, is often the solution, every bit as much as the traditional dawn patrol departure.

But for sure, the under-powered airplane will teach more about ridge lift and orographic effects than the high-powered airplanes do--and yet, those lessons can be really helpful even in a turbo-charged fire breather. But if I was wanting to commute reliably in the mountains, I'd want the turbo-charged fire breather.

Cary

https://www.eaa.org/en/airventure/eaa-a ... to-oshkosh

These gentlemen made their way up through the Andes in an unmodified C140, and back. I will see if they produced a blog in Spanish, but evidence that the C140 despite the cosy living quarters has great capabilities.

http://modocharlie.com/2015/07/entrevis ... ture-2015/

All good stuff. I know we go around and around about underpowered planes in here every so often. I won't be needing to fly it daily but was wanting some more TW time and know guys fly these plane all around - but the direct shot between CNY and GUC requires about 10k.

Felix wrote:

I ride my horse in and around those rocks on the other side of the pass from gunnison.

29singlespeed,

You have many safe volcanic formed and high mountains in the desert out toward Moab like the Sals. Rent a C-150 and practice finding good air in the heat of day. Keep an angle with the ridge so that you can always turn easily to lower ground. Let the nose go down as much as it wants to in all turns. Go down toward Telluride and ride the Cimmaron ridge NW on the west, desert side. With some wind energy, you will see the possibility much greater than an engine climb without thermalling over the desert.

Actually, the airplane makes little difference. The smaller the engine, the easier it is to appreciate both ridge lift and on course full power thermalling where we go slow in up air and pitch down to speed through down air.

Have fun,

Contact

Felix wrote:After a night of camping in Salida and a day of exploring the San Luis Valley, RC5280 was headed back ...<snip>...

Heya Alex -- How did/do you end up getting into the San Luis valley that day? Eleven mile over Trout Creek, or from the east (Florence, Canon City, Cotopaxi, etc?

(Sounds like a great trip! Getting Cubs like ours into that area is a real treat!)

Hey Dave - good to hear from you! We had slack winds in the mountains on the afternoon that we flew from the Front Range to Salida, so I flew from Boulder to Wilkerson Pass and then over Trout Creek Pass. South Park was full of sink as we were getting into late afternoon and the light winds made finding ridge lift nearly impossible, but I did manage to find enough altitude to squeeze over Trout Creek. That trip is pretty much the range of my plane with the stock nose tank, so I also carried a fuel bag in case I needed to land in South Park to transfer some fuel. Fun trip for sure! We should set something similar up one of these days!

Felix wrote:Hey Dave - good to hear from you! We had slack winds in the mountains on the afternoon that we flew from the Front Range to Salida, so I flew from Boulder to Wilkerson Pass and then over Trout Creek Pass. South Park was full of sink as we were getting into late afternoon and the light winds made finding ridge lift nearly impossible, but I did manage to find enough altitude to squeeze over Trout Creek. That trip is pretty much the range of my plane with the stock nose tank, so I also carried a fuel bag in case I needed to land in South Park to transfer some fuel. Fun trip for sure! We should set something similar up one of these days!

I am super stoked you were able to make that trip on your stock tank in a safe, controlled way. You make us low-powered plane-pilots look good. Great job!

I don't check in here all that often, but I will email you. I'd love to make that journey with you some day and explore that area...

motosix wrote:

Felix wrote:Hey Dave - good to hear from you! We had slack winds in the mountains on the afternoon that we flew from the Front Range to Salida, so I flew from Boulder to Wilkerson Pass and then over Trout Creek Pass. South Park was full of sink as we were getting into late afternoon and the light winds made finding ridge lift nearly impossible, but I did manage to find enough altitude to squeeze over Trout Creek. That trip is pretty much the range of my plane with the stock nose tank, so I also carried a fuel bag in case I needed to land in South Park to transfer some fuel. Fun trip for sure! We should set something similar up one of these days!

I am super stoked you were able to make that trip on your stock tank in a safe, controlled way. You make us low-powered plane-pilots look good. Great job!

I don't check in here all that often, but I will email you. I'd love to make that journey with you some day and explore that area...

Oh, and one little tid-bit for anyone else horsepower-challenged like us:

Just east of Buena Vista / KAEJ, right between the airport and Kaufman ridge (the ridge that separates South Park from the valley which Trout Creek Pass cuts through) -- there are a few irrigation rings just on the south side of 285 at the base of the ridge.

For some reason, there is almost always lift in that general area, and more often than not, enough to get up and over Trout Creek without having to stand on the prop the entire time. Locals have noted this area as well, so it seems consistent. AEJ has fuel, so it is worth taking a few extra minutes looking for lift if you need to get up into South Park, or even if you want to go south and go over Poncha Pass.