Hello O’ wise and knowledgeable folks of the BCP pages. I need to tap into that vast knowledge and experience that I have come to know exists in the members of this group. No pressure.

I’m entertaining the opportunity to buy a quarter share in a ’78 C182rg.

The airplane was completely rebuilt 4.5 years ago; with new paint, new skin on wings and most parts, new interior, new overhaul, and most components/accessories either new or overhauled at that time. The avionics; Bendix/King KMA 24 Audio Panel, Bendix/King KLN 94 IFR Color Moving Map GPS, Bendix/King KX165 TSO Flip/Flop Nav/Comm w/ILS, Bendix/King KX155 TSO Flip/Flop Nav/Comm, Cessna 300A Navomatic Auto Pilot.

Total time is around 2780 and engine is at 1480. The asking price for the share is 29k. I would pay $65/hr when I fly her. It’s leased to an FBO for rental and instruction, that’s why the $65/hr. Looking at the rental history, the frequency covers the monthly costs well. (insur, hangar, tie down etc.)

I’ve have about ten hours in this plane and have no complaints. The plane fits my mission to build more time in a complex/high performance airplane.

So, my question is, how does this deal sound to you?

Thanks for any insight folks.

Michael

I don't think that's a good deal for a 182rg with 1500 hours on the engine. 30k x4... Betting it's not worth 120k. Lots of the for sale under a 100k. I have a friend here that just got into a 1/4 share for 19k. Not an RG but. Curious what others think.
New paint and interior doesn't make a new plane.
Good luck!

Akt

That might be in the ballpark? I agree with AKT in that it might be a little high to pay $120k for one outright. But most of those fractional share deals end up a little higher anyway, seems like. The bigger question would be the overhaul when it comes due. Are you buying into a situation where there is a mx account set - up with money in it for the overhaul or is everyone going go have to pony-up a full 1/4 share of the $50k it will likely take to do the engine and prop when it comes due? Something to consider is that engine will run past TBO, but with the history of different operators and also being a rental I wouldn't count on it.

A great airplane, at any rate. I've always liked them. There were some QC issues from Cessna with some of the first ones but I am sure any issues have been dealt with by now.

Gb

This is what they look like with the gear coming up. Unfortunately, this is also what they look like when the gear won't come down.

The only good deal here is for the FBO. No capital risk, gets the first profit and no ownership expense.

Good Luck

sm

A local T210RG with a zero time engine is selling a quarter share at $28k. Two of the previous owners (who have had the plane together since 1980ish) recognized the time to downsize. It's a well taken care of bird. There are some good oportunities out there right now and I'm not sure that a 182 at that price is one of them. What would your costs be if you continued to rent it instead of buying in until the right plane came along (assuming you decide this isn't it)? There's a lot to consider when buying an airplane but it can be a fun process! Good luck and enjoy whatever you end up with.

CW

The price is too high. Thats an 80k plane in todays market. 78 model has bladders and is usually priced less than later years. Magneto setup is one of the worst designs in GA but is usually trouble-free. Great plane BTW.

Perhaps the buy-in cost accounts for some cabbage in the engine fund???

Why did it get rebuilt?

Thanks everyone that has given their opinion on this matter.

I too have thought what most of you have said. The share price is too high. I think I would be better off to purchase a plane with one or two friends.

I retired from the military two years ago and I am currently working a contractor gig that has me traveling all over the country and in and out of Afghanistan, where I am now. I don’t want to do this forever. I would love to have a job working for an outfit that has a parcel contract with FedEx or UPS just hauling small cargo around, nothing fancy, just to fly. So, the idea with the 182 was to build time to where a potential employer would take a look at me and give me a chance. A 210 would be nice and a larger aircraft would look better on the resume but I don’t think I could take the bite in the shorts with the insurance. I have yet to get my instrument rating and I know that helps with insurance. Clippwagon from Oregon mention a share in a T210RG going for 28k. For what I want to do this would be perfect. But, I’m not in Oregon.

I would have to fly this plane, the share we are talking about, through 270 hours before the own over rent is a benefit to me. That’s great and all along the way I get my commercial and instrument.

Maybe I could talk him down, maybe it would be better to get a plane in better shape and fewer hours, and then again maybe just renting is where I should stay.

SixTwoLeemer; I don’t know why the plane was rebuilt. I will have to ask that question. The question list is getting longer.

In yoyr first post, not sure if I read it right or not, but did you say you will still have to pay 65/hr even after you buy the share? What it the rental cost that you pay to fly it now? I'm thinking it would make more sense to just keep renting, rather then paying to own a plane and still paying a rental fee for it... but I may have misread.

David

Read "Justification for flying"

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=11656

That math only works for your own airplane, and if in a partnership, you get stuck dealing with reality dollars. Then the numbers are a bit harder to swallow.

As for me, I'd rather be a bit airplane poor than have to share.

Gump

An airplane that is not only flown by the 4 shareholders but is also rented out is likely to be beat to death. I would be a bit suspicious of it, especially since it sounds as if the engine had to be rebuilt prematurely--the TBO for the Lycoming 540 in those is 2000 hours, and they normally go all the way, other than the occasional top job on one or two cylinders. I'd certainly want to know why the early rebuild, although it may be that it was individually owned early in its life and just didn't get flown enough.

Now the engine has a couple hundred hours more on the rebuild than it did when the original was rebuilt. But with only 500 hours to go to TBO, 4 owners and renting out, that's only slightly more than a year before the FBO will require it to be rebuilt in order to be able to continue renting it out. That's a $35,000 engine easily, maybe more, so there better be plenty of scratch in the kitty to be ready for such a major expense.

If you decide to buy a share, though, do yourself a favor and have a good mechanic who knows RGs do a complete pre-buy inspection. Any 35 year old airplane will have a lot of potential glitches, some of which can be pretty pricey to repair.

Cary

A1Skinner (David); Right now I pay 173/hr for the plane.

Gump; Thanks for the link. I saw that one the other day and I’m keeping it close to use as a good reference.

Cary; Yes, some of the planes in the fleet do have some signs of being beat on. The 182 shows fewer even with it being in the fleet for 4 years. I think it’s because it doesn’t get flown by as many folks.

Maybe I could find a couple of good folks in the Springs area to go in a T210. Could I get that in and out of Johnson Creek and Caveman even with it being a slightly flimsy RG?

You mentioned the plane as a way to build time, experience and ratings towards looking for a flying gig. As someone who added flying duties to my primary job, I recommend checking to see what your hypothetical cargo outfit requires to hire you. I would guess that total time and ratings (MEL?) would matter more that a few hundred hours in a HP-complex plane? Find out what it takes, then go accomplish it. Otherwise, the $ you are talking about will get you in to the lower end of sole ownership of an early 182. I too was tempted by a ~$20k 1/4 share in a T182RG to get my commercial and instrument, but it wouldn't have allowed me to fly into the backcountry places I wanted to easily, whereas owning my own plane did. Then you can take YOUR plane when/where you want to, including strips way more challenging than JC or Caveman.

Kaptain K, Thanks for the grounding strap. You’re right, back to reality.

OK, let’s take a look at the folks at Redtail Aviation near Moab. The last I saw, they have twelve aircraft, one Kodiak, two 210s, two 172s, a 206 and six 207s. They have a few different missions, hauling folks in and out of the canyonlands for camping, hiking, fishing and aerial sightseeing. They also haul parcels to a few different locations like Price, Grand Junction, and Green River. My apologies to the Redtail folks if I get some of their info mixed up. I haven't talked to these folks yet, I've just been doing a little homework online. If they were to take a look at adding me to their staff of pilots, wouldn’t it look better on my resume to have many hours in a complex high performance aircraft then in 152s and 172s? I’m thinking it would show that I have been flying an aircraft that requires more attention to fly. Or, it wouldn’t hold that much weight but having some hours in a complex/HP would be fine just so long as the total flight hours are there?

I can see your point. Save some money and fly more in the cheaper aircraft then fly less in the more expensive aircraft.

If your looking for that type of flying job, backcountry/mountain flying experience would be of more value, I would think.

An outfit like Redtail, or any of the single engine Part 135 air-taxi airlines up in AK aren't really going to care how your hours are broken down. Insurance requirements are most likely going to be a MINIMUM of 1,500 hours PIC. And Commercial SEL, Instrument.

The most important requirement is attitude, showing the chief pilot you have common sense and a good work ethic, and have a good basic understanding of how to fly an airplane without breaking shit. The rest is trainable.

Spend your money on a solid airplane you can fly as much as you can, as often as you can, and as much cross-country/weather flying as you can. Get your nav skills built up (knowing how to turn on the GPS doesn't count for much), and get used to making quick, smart decisions on the go. And pay attention to the flying a lot of the guys do on here. There's a whole bunch of youngsters here on BCP honing skills in the dirt that are turning them into really fine pilots with balls and brains. They know how to fly.

Plop a thick logbook on a chief pilot's desk with the above, and he or she really won't give a shit how much C182RG time you have, just that you have quality time. That gets you jobs.

Gump

Excellent advice Mr. Gump. Thank you, that's what I'm looking for. No bells and whistles, shooting red and green star clusters, glitter or frilly lacy BS. Just the no baloney facts.

I'm flying out of an airfield where the ele. is just over 6k so I'd like something a little stronger then the typical 172 power. The FBO has a 172xp (210hp) that I have been flying as well. I'll save renting the 182 for long trips and I'll fly the 172xp more. I'll keep looking for one of my own using the points that you offered.

One of my trips to AK I met a man at the Kenai airport that happened to have some time in the same type of Army units I did. Granted his time was spent in Vietnam. He mentioned that he had a 185 and I should come by his place some time for a visit. Unfortunately, I was on my way back to Colorado when I met him. He has a place on the Kenai that sounds great, so I need to get back there. That might be an opportunity to get some AK time as well.

Thanks again.


P.S. Hey Gump, what about the '64 206 for 75k in Winnemucca? (1765TT)

SFC Mike wrote: What about the '64 206 for 75k in Winnemucca? (1765TT)

Guess it depends on your priorities...

Got $75K burning a hole in your pocket, that 75K will get ya the C206 and you'll have a great load hauler, stable IFR machine in a bit of weather, and decent backcountry ability. You'll also burn 12 to 16 GPH of $6.00+ avgas, and have six cylinders to feed come annual and repair time.

How many hours a year can you afford to fly it, counting down towards the magic 1,500?

Buy a $30K machine on the other hand... You have $45K left over for gasoline. At 6 to 10 GPH, that's a lot of gas, almost a thousand hours worth. Instead of flying 50 hours a year, you can fly 300, or 400, or whatever you can. If your goal is a simple, leave me the hell alone and let me fly freight and river rafters job, cross-country logbook hours are your friend. No one is gonna care if all your instrument hours are in a glass cockpit plastic airplane out of LAX. You'll never see that in any work airplane at that level.

And that el-cheapo airplane can be used for a vast majority of your training. You don't need to pay $175 an hour renting glass just to go up with your CFI-I and learn attitude instrument flying under the hood. Your own airplane will work just fine. Save the rental $$$ for when you absolutely have to have it. Same with commercial maneuvers, except for complex time, use your own. That $100 an hour difference in your pocket is a couple hours worth of gas.

But, just realize my advice is exactly what ya pay for it!!!!! There's a reason I spent my flying career in the frozen Arctic wastelands, and it's NOT because I play well with others...

Gump

OK, so my focus should be in the line of a nice 172. A 172XP would be nice due to the elevation and my desire to venture into the mountains a little. No more then lets say, 4000 hours TT? I won't worry about how fancy the panel is just so long as things work.

Agree? Or other ideas?

SFC Mike wrote:OK, so my focus should be in the line of a nice 172. No more then lets say, 4000 hours TT?

If'n it was me... I'd be looking for the little wheel on the proper end of the airplane, the back. But that's me.

And as for 4K TT, that number doesn't really mean much.

Go fly. As much as you can. In as many different airplanes as you can. And talk to as many flying folk as you can. Then go do what makes the most sense for you.

Gump