gump is right! handle the scary shit NOW, get freaked out later...chalk it up to not getting in that situation again...some dual here is vital...scariest for me was in wyoming, in the dark, yellow/red on the screen all around, more rain than i've ever been in, thank god for Aviat husky's test pilot that night!

wannabe wrote:those who are the most vociferous about technique here, have never been there. The posts that recommend any aerobatic maneuvers when deep in a canyon, and down to seconds, are absolute BS.

snip

After reading that section you will be able to easily identify some of these BS postings on the subject.

OK, I'll bite. I've spent quite a bit of time in canyons, without the extra benefit of an engine. Much of that time was spent playing the rising air currents, maybe 5-10 knots above stall speed, in turbulence, with a wing loading maybe half of a Cessna 170 or 180. So though I won't claim to be a famous bush driver like Mr. Imeson, I won't sit back and act like I've never been there either.

It has been said in your post that an airplane can potentially turn around in three wing lengths using the canyon turn maneuver. It was said by me that a hammerhead stall can turn the airplane around in one wing length. One length, according to my calculator, is somewhat less than three lengths.

I also pointed out several facts that affect safety in that kind of emergency situation. Not the least of which is the fact that once you start a hammerhead, you are never flying directly toward any of the canyon walls at slow speed. In a "canyon turn", you are in an ever-tightening turn, at slower and slower speeds, nose to nose with the canyon wall.

So please let me know which facts are BS and why. Tell me which parts of what I said are either untrue on a technical or practical level. And you can't just quote someone else, or point to a page in a book. With all humility, and no "Attitude" intended on my part, I challenge anyone hereto show me technically why you disagree with my statements about the hammerhead and specifically how the Canyon turn is safer.

And it don't matter a lick who has more hours doing what. If I were a brand new student pilot and you were Roscoe Turner, I'd still challenge you to show me which of my facts are incorrect. If you can do that, Iw ill admit I'm wrong publicly right here.

Hey EZ
I am going to assume in a tight canyon, Running out of room, you probably ain't hauing ass, climbing for all you are worth to get out of the canyon,it would be pretty tough to do a hammerhead

Now I'm starting to loose interest in this thread. I just don't see any reason to continue up a canyon with out a safe and easy way out with out having to do some evasive manuever to save my azz!!!! I don't know, maybe I'm missing something here?? Or not having an open mind?? I don't know, this thread started out interesting and informative, but like some other threads it's starting to turn into a pissing match . Sorry for the rant!!

58Skylane wrote: I don't know, this thread started out interesting and informative, but like some other threads it's starting to turn into a pissing match

Welcome to the Internet, where anyone can be an expert, a man can be a woman, and you can't get punched in the face.

58Skylane wrote:I just don't see any reason to continue up a canyon with out a safe and easy way out with out having to do some evasive manuever to save my azz!!!!

I don't know, this thread started out interesting and informative, but like some other threads it's starting to turn into a pissing match

Well dude, you're right on both counts. Neither the canyon turn or an aerobatic hammerhead is something you would be doing because you wanted to. Flying up a blind canyon without knowing what's around the bend is stupid no matter what maneuver you want to do to try and get out of it. (And Shortfielder is correct too in that there is certainly a "point of no return" that has to do with your airspeed, altitude above the canyon floor, etc. etc. for any maneuver whether horizontal or vertical. )

'Far as the pissing, you're right on that too. I'm disappointed that what was a fun theoretical and even esoteric discussion about a desperate emergency situaiton became more edgy than it should have. Call me a knuckle dragger if you like, but when the pissing starts I won't let myself be the only one getting wet I do happen to have a BS degree in Advanced BS, but I'm not BS'ing in this particular discussion.

IMHO, once someone has made the stupid mistake of flying into the wrong canyon... If the canyon is wider than it is taller then "canyon turning" will be better. If it is narrow and deep and you don't have room to turn around horizontally then perhaps some folks would just give up and crash. But some of us old school knuckle draggers know about another way to reverse direction that goes back to WW1 (when most of the maneuvers we think of now as useless acro were first developed as survival and combat maneuvers).

The "Immelmann" is not an aerobatic maneuver, it was a WW1 ace named Max Immelmann who developed the "Immelmann Turn" as a combat maneuver to recover kinetic energy after a firing pass at another aircraft, and quickly regain altitude to escape being shot at. Similar story for the "Chandelle".

shortfielder wrote:Hey EZ
I am going to assume in a tight canyon, Running out of room, you probably ain't hauing ass, climbing for all you are worth to get out of the canyon,it would be pretty tough to do a hammerhead

Yes of course you are correct Gary, the hammerhead option demands that you start the maneuver at a higher speed, either by diving or by having the speed before you start.

The only point I was wanting to make in the first place is that there is one other strange option that allows you to turn around with zero side-to-side displacement if and when that would be necessary.

If you're already out of airspeed, climbing slowly, etc. etc. in a tight canyon then there may not be enough energy for any maneuver whether horizontal or vertical.

Bill Berle
EZ Flap

I'm not exactly sure what flying up a canyon proves, other than maybe the lunch pail is a few sandwhices short. I was taught 46 years ago "always have an out" in the mountains. Flying down canyon usually gives you an out, and the scenery is the same. You could put a lot of "X's" on a map of the Rock Mtns. where planes have wrecked flying up canyons. Fly down canyon, have fun, no turns, stay alive.

Nothing like a good ole urination festival to mess the hell out of a good thread........

robertc wrote:I'm not exactly sure what flying up a canyon proves, other than maybe the lunch pail is a few sandwhices short. I was taught 46 years ago "always have an out" in the mountains. Flying down canyon usually gives you an out, and the scenery is the same. You could put a lot of "X's" on a map of the Rock Mtns. where planes have wrecked flying up canyons. Fly down canyon, have fun, no turns, stay alive.

Nicely stated.
gb

We have lots of canyon in Utah that you can comfortably fly up.Turn arond in, alot of the time. The thing here, that I think is important, it to get familiar with it by flying over it, before you do it, to determine whether you can do it safely or not.

The reason why to do it. It may be on the way to somewhere you are going, and give you a scenic route to that place, rather than flying 1-5000' above the scenery.

This type of flying may not be comfortable for everyone, and certainly not as safe, as flying 5-10,000' above the groung, but for those that are comfortable with it, it is a priceless experience.

Risky, yes,but flying is risky. I just try to minimize the risk and apply it to MY comfort level.

Gary

I think it's wise to emphasize all these caveats involved and encourage discretion and judgment when discussing the "canyon turn," but we should also be capable of abstracting flying technique as it applies to the scope of the aircraft. Even the wisest and most seasoned pilots have found themselves in puckery situations despite their best efforts to avoid just that. After all, this is a discussion forum. Where else are you going to entertained fantasies of extreme scenarios?

Our aircraft can be turned around in a pretty tight space, and I don't think some pilots realize just how tight until they practice some of this stuff in free air at altitude. I like discussing it and becoming enlightened on some things I may not have concluded on my own. It doesn't mean I've going to depend on that technique for anything other than last-ditch-done-fucked-up-but-ain't-ready-to-die-yet. The quasi-aerobatic stuff is always going to get mentioned, without fail.

I particular like Yellowbelly's thoughts about load limits with fully extended flaps and bank angle. Thanks. I hadn't thought of that.

While camping at Johnson Cr, I woke up and found it a calm morning, but overcast sky's. Made some coffee and chatted with some of the neighbors. Nobody is flying, the ceiling is below the ridge tops but what a nice morning, what the hell, I am going flying!
I'm headed for Sulfur Cr and some of the best bacon I have ever had. I'm not sure I will make it that far, but what the hell I can always turn around and come back.
Take off down stream and make a 180 for breakfast, I'm by myself with the chart in my lap, life is good. I'm a good 800' above the ground and 500' below the clouds, full throttle following the creek up the hill at 100mph indicated. I'm a little nervous, this is my first time up JC, the ceiling is getting a little lower but I'm hugging the right side of the canyon, watching my backside for a way out and plenty of room to turn around.
This is awesome, got the whole canyon to myself, this is what bush flying is all about, calculated risks, I can always go back and spend the day on the ground.
The ceiling is low now and I am 300' agl, still at climbing 100 indicated. Watching the chart closely, I know I'm almost over the ridge. There is a fork in the creek, looks like I need to stay left. Following that creek like stink on shit, looking ahead I can see there is a right turn in the canyon. Things are starting to narrow up now but it looks brighter around the corner and I can still turn around if I had to. I make the corner and BAM, dead end.
Luckily my old school instructor taught me how to turn around in a tight spot and I practiced it many times at altitude.
That is probably the biggest BS story on this thread
But it could happen that way.

1SeventyZ wrote:" found themselves in puckery situations..... " technique for anything other than last-ditch-done-fucked-up-but-ain't-ready-to-die-yet..... "

Z, that about sums it up if you and airplane make it through you are a philosopher and made the right decision. If not your the subject of " What the hell was he thinking"?

that scenario is a good one, and easy to pull off on a cloudy day...simply fly south of jc, hit landmark and slightly left, pop over one ridge into the bowl at sulphur, do your left base with a short approach, it is a piece of cake with a little prior instruction. stay inside the bowl and land, don't go clear out to morgan and turn for a long final...master your SLOW flight, and you'll live a long time...

hey sf, sometimes u get hungry! that scenario is very doable and safe, done it a # of times, with and without a cfi...

delete

The problem as I see it is, people from all over read these posts, all different abilities. You say it's a no brainer to head up the canyon on a marginal day to go get somethin to eat.

If you are familiar with the country and the weather paterns, it is defineately easier, still debateable whether it is a good idea or not.

But, some flastlander comes in with his C-120,has read your post, says no problem, weather deeriorates, goes over the wrong hill, whatever, he's in deepshit.

Obviously you can say whatever you like, I just fear it can cause problems for someone that relies too much on what is said here.

Gary

And I'm no expert, or even close. I'm pretty far down in the pecking order. I am here mostly to learn from those that DO KNOW, and are willing to share their insight, and to hear about cool airstrips that I haven't been to before.

Gary