Bonanza Man wrote:

Scolopax wrote:Insurance companies do not want to pay claims. It can be detrimental to their bottom line. My guess is that most in the insurance business are in it for the money, as it doesn't exactly seem like "labor of love" type of work. Maybe I am wrong about this, but an expired policy, even if by ten minutes, gives them an easy out. There are a number of other reasons that they won't pay that seem unreasonable as well. Lesson in this: read your policy and don't let it lapse.

You entered into a contract but when it suits you you want it changed. Where's the line? At what point past what you paid for should the insurance policy not be in effect? A day? A week? A month?

I agree when it runs out it runs out, bad planning flying without at least calling your agent and documenting binding of the insurance, good thing there were no major injuries.

As far as carb ice I don't buy it, cold dry and high enough to maybe get a restart, wide interstate highway below? Maybe if he forgot to pay the insurance premium he forgot to put fuel in it too?

Scolopax the reason you don't get a drop in RPM on your 180 is because your O-470 has a governor on it, when you pull carb heat the governor makes the motor stay at the governed RPM. That's why Cessna put carb temp gauges in those old 180/182's

Ok time to go back to my arm chair.

Another vote for a carb temp gauge. I have the old big round one in my plane, right next to the CHT. It takes a lot of the guesswork out, and also makes it easy to test that the carb heat is working.

FAA records indicate it is a C-175 with a GO-300. Haven’t seen many happy ending with a GO-300.

rw2 wrote: If the part about his insurance company not covering a 13 hour expired policy is legit then I want to know what company it was so I can make sure to take my business elsewhere. Not cool.

If the insurance outfit is like any that I have dealt with, he had plenty of notice (like over a month) that renewal payment was due. It doesn't seem unreasonable to me for the insurance not to pay on an expired policy. If you rented a house, would it be reasonable to expect to keep living there after you quit paying the rent?
My insurance has always required that the airplane be airworthy, but one policy I had actually listed a grace period on annual inspection. Don't recall now who it was or how much of a grace period (week? 15 days?), but I thought that was a pretty good feature-- sometimes my airplane has gone out of annual for a week or so due to scheduling conflicts. Nice to know in that situation that I'm covered if I crash on the way to my mechanic's

Oregon180 wrote:Another vote for a carb temp gauge. I have the old big round one in my plane, right next to the CHT. It takes a lot of the guesswork out, and also makes it easy to test that the carb heat is working.

Keep it above the yellow, check for a rise on run up We all use a check list right? I run with mine (carb heat) on in flight all the time. Always shut it off on short final so I don't suck up dirt, never get ice The Temp gauge is over on the right with all the engine instrument gauges they are a very important part of the scan. I also pay my insurance we all know insurance companies are ruthless and work the fine line of "contract".

FLYNLW wrote:FAA records indicate it is a C-175 with a GO-300. Haven’t seen many happy ending with a GO-300.

It had a Lycoming 0-360 installed years ago but the FAA is ever slow in updating the records.

hotrod150 wrote:If the insurance outfit is like any that I have dealt with, he had plenty of notice (like over a month) that renewal payment was due.

My broker would sometimes call and sometimes not, it was pretty much up to me to get my policy renewed. My broker is based in Utah.

Glidergeek wrote:As far as carb ice I don'y buy it, cold dry and high enough to maybe get a restart, wide interstate highway below? Maybe if he forgot to pay the insurance premium he forgot to put fuel in it too?

That was my first impression too. The "carb ice" thing was purely a statement the pilot made, so we'll have to wait until the full report comes out. It just didn't seem like conditions that are conducive to carb ice. With a few pax aboard, I wouldn't be surprised if fuel exhaustion was the cause, if he'd made an attempt to remain under max gross. But that is pure speculation, based only on a cold and clear sunny day in a fairly dry region.

Carb ice depends on the difference between ambient temperature and dew point right?
A small difference means the temperature drop at the throttle venturi is enough to cause whatever moisture exists in the air to freeze. So it can happen at any temperature if the two temperatures are close enough together. But I agree with you - the fact is cold air holds very little moisture, especially cold clear air.

If there was ice I assume it would take a loooooong time to get bad enough to lose enough power to bring you down, even if you are heavy. Although the slower onset could prove deceptive? All speculation.

Here are a couple of videos detailing how quickly carb ice can form. Check your carb ice chart before each flight.

Cubonaut875 wrote:Here are a couple of videos detailing how quickly carb ice can form. Check your carb ice chart before each flight.

Great videos! Based on the conditions noted in the NTSB preliminary report of -4C (24.8F) ambient and -7C (19.4F) dew point, it is certainly possible according to this chart, but only in the "descent or cruise power" region. I believe anything is possible, but some things are less likely.

[quote="Cubonaut875"]Here are a couple of videos detailing how quickly carb ice can form. Check your carb ice chart before each flight.


I am VERY leary of the videos.....

I can fly around in a Lyc/Cont powered plane with the mixture set overly rich... pull the carb heat and get a really rough engine with black smoke coming out of the exhaust pipe..... Your second video pretty much explained the scenerio.. You finally leaned out the motor like is should have been all the time and the motor acted normal....

Somewhere, in one of the old puters I have a video I took using my engine... which is FAR from an aircraft engine.. I mounted a color spy camera on the aircleaner top, pointed right into the carb and I also added a LED light to illuminate the throttle bore.... The video CLEARLY shows all the action in that carb... I flew the plane in several different types of temps and humidity combos.... Not a hint of ice build up.... I can also use my Vacuum gauge to monitor ice build up in the carb too and so far in over 400 hours I have not experienced ice....... (disclaimer) my set up is far from normal... .

Thanks for the videos anyway....

Stol wrote:

Cubonaut875 wrote:Here are a couple of videos detailing how quickly carb ice can form. Check your carb ice chart before each flight.


I am VERY leary of the videos.....

I can fly around in a Lyc/Cont powered plane with the mixture set overly rich... pull the carb heat and get a really rough engine with black smoke coming out of the exhaust pipe..... Your second video pretty much explained the scenerio.. You finally leaned out the motor like is should have been all the time and the motor acted normal....

Somewhere, in one of the old puters I have a video I took using my engine... which is FAR from an aircraft engine.. I mounted a color spy camera on the aircleaner top, pointed right into the carb and I also added a LED light to illuminate the throttle bore.... The video CLEARLY shows all the action in that carb... I flew the plane in several different types of temps and humidity combos.... Not a hint of ice build up.... I can also use my Vacuum gauge to monitor ice build up in the carb too and so far in over 400 hours I have not experienced ice....... (disclaimer) my set up is far from normal... .

Thanks for the videos anyway....

I agree to an extent - however if it was just an overly rich situation then every time I took off and pulled the carb heat It would always yield the same result - this is not the case - I can guarantee that it only happens when I am in the serious icing area of the chart. Under normal conditions I can pull the carb heat at any time and get the usual drop with the same mixture setting.

I in no way want to be critical of the pilot, he got the plane on the ground without any injuries, the plane can be replaced. I would have definitely used flaps. Carb ice can really sneak up on you with constant speed props. Once power is lost and after field has been selected if time permits, if carb heat hasn't worked sometimes leaning can get the engine firing again and some heat back in the carb heat system. Fly the airplane. Maybe there is frost on the top of partly filled tanks which has plugged the fuel screen, try the primer, move the throttle,it might run in some position, don't forget the accelerator pump. Fly the airplane. Maybe the float is stuck shake the plane with elevators. Try switching the mags. But fly the airplane. Maybe mtv and others with far north experience could add a little about keeping airplanes safe for flight in the cold and to what I have posted.

I'm not sure I'd use flaps either in my 182. With a dead engine and full flaps there's not much flare and the weight on the nose is hard to relieve with no way to send a blast over the tail. Tough call, fast with more elevator control or slow plunk on the nose. I learned that you don't need a very big hole to put a pig like mine in the snow. I landed on the unplowed dirt strip once just for fun in six inches of snow, stopped dead in about 100 feet, then I was stuck and had to trudge to the hanger, get my Rhino and tow bar to drag my dumb ass home.

It had a Lycoming 0-360 installed years ago but the FAA is ever slow in updating the records.

Unless you pay to see the various 337s and STCs applicable to that particular airplane, the FAA's online records will only show how it was built, not how it was modified. Mine hasn't had the Continental since 1973, and there have been countless other changes, but none show on the N-number lookup page.

Cary

One POSSIBLE reason for retracted flaps is that you get less nose-down pitch, and more effective "up elevator". So he may have been thinking about keeping the nose up as long as possible to avoid digging the nosewheel in.

FWIW, total impact energy is well known to be an exponential multiple of impact speed. For every extra mile an hour of impact speed there is a much larger amount of total energy. I would have done anything and everything to get the airplane as slow as possible at the moment of landing and still maintain control.

Maybe he just locked up and forgot the flaps.

This was even on our news in Oz this morning, glad all are ok.

Watch the video. There are some good clues there regarding flaps, etc. fortunately, nobody was hurt.

MTV

Scolopax wrote:I have actually been wondering about the performance of the carburetor heat on my 180, which is probably identical to that on the 182. The 170 system that I am accustomed to using produces a lot of heat and is very effective. The 180 installation is open to the ambient lower cowling air, produces almost no rpm drop during run up, and it seems that after a low power descent it would have little effect in melting much of anything that has accumulated. I am sure that Cessna passed the regulatory requirements when certifying the installation, but I would not want to count on it to melt accumulated ice, rather use it to prevent any ice from accumulating. It looks like this guy's carb iced up on a clear day. Should I use it any time it's below 40F or something? Does anyone have any thoughts, opinions or experiences with this?

Looks like he has the EZ flap installed.

Your 180 won't have rpm drop during run-up because of the constant speed prop. A way to check if your carb heat is working before flight is to check it before or after run-up at 800 rpm instead of at 1700.