Backcountry Pilot

[n6zt offline]

There is a very informative thread on supercub.org regarding carbon monoxide poisoning. It is well worth reading the thread.
Jim

[denalipilot offline]

Thanks- will check it out. On that topic- I've been flying with a CoStar CO detector for about three years now. Seems like a great product to me- I was never a big fan of those press-on dots that always fall off the panel, or darken from age.

[Zzz]

Excellent classic tale from Jr on this topic:

http://www.backcountrypilot.org/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=167

[denalipilot offline]

I was never a big fan of those press-on dots that always fall off the panel, or darken from age.

I am, one of them saved my life.

Nothing against your CoStar I have a battery powered one myself. I tested it and it works, but for some reason that I can only think had to do with location it did not alarm, while the little stick on dot on my panel was black.

You can't really overkill with CO detection in the cockpit.

Jr.CubBuilder- that's a good (and chilling) testimonial. It would follow from the location issue that to really protect yourself you would want several of those dots at different places in the cockpit.

Unless it's rising thermally, CO should be heavier than air, and therefore stay low. Depends on how drafty your door seals are, I suppose.

On a separate note- does anyone have mental acuity self-tests that they use? I know that the insidious thing is that by the time you might notice, it is too late. But have you ever recognized the onset of hypoxia just from cruising too high for too long? Having climbed a lot of big mountains, I believe that I have a certain awareness of when altitude-induced hypoxia is beginning to effect me. I'm NOT saying that I'm immune, just that I believe I have gained familiarity to help me recognize certain self-behaviors, or a progression of early symptoms, based on having been there numerous times in the past. I'm not saying this is a fail-safe practice, and I'm not saying that there is any rationale for pressing the envelope based on this belief. However, early notice may be the warning that allows you to descend NOW, vs, holding out past the point of return.

Medically, of course, altitude-induced hypoxia (unless it progresses to high-altitude edemas (pulmonary or cerebral)), is corrected by increased oxygenation, whether by bottled O2, or by descent to lower elevation, or in the mountaineering world, by use of a hyperbaric chamber such as a Gammow Bag.

CO poisoning, on the other hand, is just that: POISONING. Your hemoglobin has a much higher affinity for those CO molecules than for the O2 that they should be hooking onto. Descent will not cause those CO molecules to split off of your red blood cells. Time (as measured in days) is required for the body to recover from a bad case of CO poisoning.

So, rambling on here (sorry), but back to the point. Some climbers use certain self-tests to assess hypoxia-induced impairment. A classic is to read your analogue wristwatch backwards in the reflection of a pocket mirror (found in most good compasses), and see how long it takes you to accomplish this. On higher summits, twice as long as sea level performance is customary.

Myself, I'm also a fan of Pulse-Oxymetry. These are the fingertip gadgets that clamp onto your finger and shoot red light through it to measure your O2 saturation. The price on these is high, but slowly coming down. If we're carrying sat phones and PLBs and so on, maybe one of these is a reasonable investment for the flight bag. I spent extended time living at 12,500, and used a Pulse-Ox daily on myself, as well as new arrivals. It doesn't lie.

Thanks for starting this thread. It could save a life.

-DP

[GroundLooper offline]

You can't really overkill with CO detection in the cockpit. The detectors are light, and cheap. For practical purposes the dots don't age if the package isn't broken, stick one on the panel, date it, and it's good for three months. When it's out of date I replace it, I buy them a half dozen at a time and keep them in my flight bag unopened.

Just replaced the stick-on one in the 150, which probably rolled out of the factory with it.

The package said good for 18 months once opened.

[denalipilot offline]

Had the battery powered alarm been in a different area and gone off I think that would have helped do the same thing, although I might not have heard it with the motor going and a headset on

I will definitely read your account- haven't yet, but will make time. On the CoStar, one thing I like about it is that it has both a flashing red light and an auditory signal to help get my attention. It also has a self-test like home smoke detectors, where you press a button and it confirms it is working by going through a little light-and-noise drill. I press this and watch for confirmation on (almost) every flight. It also flashes every 30 seconds, to tell you it's still functioning normally. I find these features reassuring, but then, there's nothing wrong with having those press-on dots too. Redundancy is good in primary flight systems, after all.

-DP

[AKGrouch offline]

I just replaced the detector on my panel this afternoon with one of the one's alleged to go 18 months.

[denalipilot offline]

This thread reminds me of a story I was told back before my own flying days. A pilot-friend had an acquaintance who lit up a smoke while cruising over the Sierras in a non-pressurized aircraft at about 14,000'. Story went that he blacked out from the lack of oxygen, and came to at about 7,000' with the plane in a stabilized descent. Apparently he quit smoking after that

[Prepared Pilot offline]

As a Paramedic I treated several people for CO poisoning and unfortunately saw even more people who had already died from it. I take CO poisoning seriously.

I would caution anyone considering using a Costar CO detector to look at the manufacturers specification for its sensitivity. It is not very sensitive and by the time it alarms you will likely already be somewhat impaired. If you were in a house when it went off and all you had to do was stumble to the door that level of impairment is an acceptable trade off to prevent unnecessary 911 calls. When my survival depends on continuing to navigate, use good judgment and land an airplane I would prefer to have it alarm before I am impaired. Below is a listing of different CO levels, and the actions taken by the Costar detector at these levels. The list also shows the response of the Pocket CO Detector which is the kind I decided to use and offer for sale after doing my research.


CO Level

5-24 ppm
Costar - No Response
Pocket CO - Shows CO level on LED screen

25 ppm (TWA maximum exposure)
Costar - No Response
Pocket CO - Alarm after 0-30 minutes depending on speed of onset

50 ppm (Maximum allowable exposure in workplace)
Costar - No Response
Pocket CO - Alarm within minutes depending on speed of onset

70 ppm
Costar - Alarm after 240 minutes
Pocket CO - Alarm within minutes depending on speed of onset

125 ppm (OSHA alarm limit)
Pocket CO - Immediate flashing LED and 85 dB alarm

150 ppm
Costar - Alarm after 50 minutes
Pocket CO - Immediate flashing LED and 85 dB alarm

200 ppm (Dizzy, nausea, fatigue, headache)
Pocket CO - Immediate flashing LED and 85 dB alarm

400 ppm (Life Threatening 3 hours)
Costar - Alarm after 15 minutes
Pocket CO - Immediate flashing LED and 85 dB alarm

I am glad that I have not had mine alert me to a problem in the cockpit yet but it has saved me from a dangerous condition. I heard on the news about several deaths due to CO when people had tried to cook, heat their homes or use a generator after a big storm knocked out the power. I have a small generator and it had been awhile since I had run it so I decided to make sure it still worked and check to make sure no CO was getting in the house when I ran it. I moved the generator to its normal spot outside the attached garage and cranked it up. With in a minute it was evident that I would not want the generator to run there for very long because my Pocket CO showed that I was being exposed to CO and that the level was rising! After a bit more experimenting I figured out where I could safely put the generator and was glad that I was not one of the people on the news

[denalipilot offline]

Below is a listing of different CO levels, and the actions taken by the Costar detector at these levels. The list also shows the response of the Pocket CO Detector which is the kind I decided to use and offer for sale after doing my research.

That's very compelling. Any idea how the press-on dots compare?

[Prepared Pilot offline]

That's very compelling. Any idea how the press-on dots compare?

Aviation Consumer Magazine found that "there’s little chance that a patch detector will quickly alert you to, say, the 100 PPM of CO that could cause impairment." They concluded that "They’re imprecise and don’t provide reliable low-level detection."

[a64pilot offline]

This is what I fly with. http://www.scotthealthsafety.com/Americ ... inisa.aspx
I wear it when certifying new aircraft, I'm not sure what it cost as the company bought it, but I know it's extremely accurate. When the wind is right, just opening the door with the engine running will set it off.

[Savannah-Tom offline]

Any idea how the press-on dots compare?

I don't have quantitative data, but I do have a personal experience with the 'dots'. I bought the kind that is supposed to have an eighteen month life and 'installed' it on my instrument panel. At the time I had about 80 hours on my kit plane and was flying to the Alvord desert at about 9000 feet, just west of the Steens mt. Glancing down at the dot, it was very dark green! Yikes. I felt no effects, the plane was running fine. I started looking for places to land. Lots of roads, the long airstrip at Roaring Springs Ranch to the south, the Alkali Lake strip to the north. Gee, I feel fine. I opened up some vents, and tried to breath mostly from what I figured would be clean air. The west side of the Steens is criss crossed with little roads, so I kept going. I landed at my destination on the Alvord and started looking over the plane. Big crack in the muffler. The dot was black. I still felt nothing. I decided that my trip home would be more direct than I wanted, but I was afraid the crack could open up more. On the ground, it took the dot about a half hour to turn pink again.

So I guess the moral of the story is that even though the dots are sluggish to respond, and they are not particularly sensitive, they are better than nothing.

After that experience, I bought a home style CO detector that runs on batteries. It has a digital display that will read from 30ppm and up. If the level is above 11 ppm, you can see levels lower than 30 by checking the peak level stored. I used data from this detector to track down leaks in the firewall of my plane, and even routes that were as circuitous as the exhaust clinging to the belly and entering through holes near the tail. Pretty interesting. For $35 it is definitely an improvement over $6 dots. It has a loud beeper for alarms, but I don't remember the level it is set for. The model I bought is a Kidde NightHawk. While it is not as nice as the aircraft specific ones, it is far better than the dots. Having a quantitative readout in addition to an alarm was very useful in tracking down leaks.

Many of the electronic detectors use the same chemical "dot" technology as the cheapy indicators, just utilize some fancy electronics to read the dot and quantify it. They units have a limited life time because of the "dots" finite life. The unit I have checks its dot and when it is ending its life, it will error out and refuse to operate. I don't know what some of the aircraft specific units use for sensor technology, but it seems most of the battery powered units use this photo-chemical process.

tom

[Savannah-Tom offline]

I tested both detectors a week later using the exhaust from a motorcycle and both worked.

Had to laugh. A long time ago my kids had some "extra" hampsters. I put them in a paper bag, and held that up to our '64 Chrysler exhaust pipe. In 30 seconds the concentrated exhaust had knocked them out. A little later, we hatched some duck eggs and one of the little guys had deformed feet. In a fit of brilliance, I decided that the little guy would be better off if I "put him out of his misery". Into the bag he went. I fired up the Chrysler and just about gassed myself holding the bag over the exhaust pipe. After several minutes of self abuse I brought the little duck back in the house and pronounced him okay after all. As it turned out, his feet got better and he had a long and normal life on the pond. Me? I've never been quite the same.

tom

[a64pilot offline]

There were a lot of people put to death by vehicle exhaust when it was discovered that was cheaper than Zyklon B.

[GumpAir offline]

There were a lot of people put to death by vehicle exhaust

In my "other life" and cop days down in Sonoma County, I had a coroner's case where a gay guy got mad at his boyfriend, and "showed him" by committing suicide with the old hose from the exhaust pipe into the window trick.

He sat in his car, tape recorder running, and kept up this nonstop diatribe about all the wrongs the boyfriend had ever done to him. It ended with a bunch of coughing and one last comment, "This isn't as easy as it's supposed to be," and more coughing, followed by silence except for the sound of the car engine.

He was quite dead, and quite bright red from the carbon monoxide. I'm sure you fire guys have seen the coloring in smoke inhalation victims. The carboxyhemoglobin turns the red blood cells the nice color, and has an affinity of about 200 times that of O2 to the cells, and once attached does not want to let go.

Gump

[Zzz]

Tom, I'm changing your username to Kevorkian.

[Savannah-Tom offline]

Gee, give me a break. At least I didn't bite their heads off.
tom

[a64pilot offline]

Gee, give me a break. At least I didn't bite their heads off.
tom

But you did eat them right? I was always told you had to eat what you killed

[Savannah-Tom offline]

Gee, give me a break. At least I didn't bite their heads off.
tom

But you did eat them right? I was always told you had to eat what you killed

Gosh, you sound like my Mom. Actually, I didn't really kill the hampsters, I just sent them to Richard Gere. What he did with them is none of my business.

tom