im fairly new here (and to the flying community as well) but not to engines. ive put together a few good ones...and popped a few as well. and ive learned alot( not all by any stretch) about things that work, and things that dont. but i have a couple questions for you guys.

2 things i really like are ceramic coatings and (small doses of) nitrous oxide. 2 things that i dont see or hear of on aircraft engines. not the small ones im lookin at anyway. with its proven track record, its a little surprising to me that there arent more discussions about ceramic coatings. there are no negatives or drawbacks to it... so why shouldnt i have it done on my 165 franklin or 0-360? i can understand not wanting to pour the nitrous devil in your expensive engine, but in small amounts, it would probably less stressful than the long full throttle takeoffs and climbs when heavy. im talking about using them in combination, not just pouring 50 horse worth of NOS in a factory spec engine.

id like to hear some of your thoughts...mostly on the ceramic, but as an aside, on the nitrous as well. is it used more than i know about? is it "taboo" among pilots?

I asked about doing this to my engine exhaust a couple of years ago....

In Salt Lake there is a company called High Performance Coatings that all of us have used on our snowmobiles and dirtbike exhaust. They use various types of ceramics and can even do fancy colors and such. They do work for Cirrus and other manufacturers (Frakes, Rotax...) but they are included as PMA or OEM spec. The coatings on that Cirrus exhaust look great and help keep the material from breaking down as quick.

www.hpcoatings.com

The IA that I work with told me that a field approval would be needed because you are altering an approved exhaust. Yes, you are improving that exhaust to perform better but to alter it you must have a field approval to change it. Field Approvals are, shall we say, "difficult" these days. That is where I stopped my quest and this info may be worthless but that was my answer.

Good luck with nitrous-

thanks for your input. what happens if i dont have to have it approved? a homebuilt float plane perhaps. ill be doing the engine work myself, as well as building the rest of the plane from kit.


but i posted this to hear from you guys on the troubles and/or benefits of ceramic and to a lesser degree, nitrous. not to tell you about my aspriations i dont plan on using nitrous on the moose. just curious.

PAMOOSE, glad your talkin the way you are, We need new Ideas,new trials,and new ways to do the same ol thing but better. There's an CH801 lurking around WY. that has an indy motor in it!!! Those rusian engines that turn backwards, there are lots of ways to make lots of hp!! All you have to worry about is keeping the cyls. hooked to the case,
Turbo's,ceramic's,titanium,some of the new (plastics) polimers, are fantastic. I'm trying a io360 but taking the oem off and replacing with (http://www.sdsefi.com./) should be fun and make a lot more torque and hp. Take off the mags and put something you can adjust and it should pull great and cruize fine!?!?
The old sb and bb chevy's in the old flat bottom ski boats are doin over 120 mph and makin 800 hp I had to get my rv6 before I could go faster than my boat, The old v12 328 cu in the jag will hit over 200!!
All the new people with the new ideas are great, thats how we got here in the first place, someone had to do it or we would still be riding horses!!
Try the nitrous and the ceramic, just don't make it backfire while you have the button down!!!
Be safe and have fun, tye it on a stand and work it hard before you put it in the air!!
Good Luck on what ever you try, and don't stop trying,
Heck there is a turboed nitrous burnin cub out there that doesn't take much room to get off the ground.
GT

When you say Ceramic coatings I would think that you are referring to a coating on top of the piston. Ceramic coatings in this application increase the combustion temp. Applying this coating to a cast piston which is a poor conductor to start with is going in the wrong direction. If nothing else changes, just applying the coating would increase combustion temp, making the process less stable. Decrease valve /seat/ guide life. Exhaust temp would increase. All this is not going in the right direction.

The Ceramic coatings are very hard and abrasive, like a diamond. Unless you have seen the damage it can do to a cylinder bore you would not believe it. At some time in the future the coating will become dislodged from the top of the piston. This alone is enough for me not to get into an aircraft that has this coating applied. My personal opinion is to go the other way and coat the piston with a coating that conducts the thermal energy, there by equalizing the temp on the top of the piston. If you look at a lot of failed cast pistons you will see a lot of ring land failure. The failure is in the area of the intake valve. This is due to the loss of parity in temp do to the heating and cooling. A forged piston conducts heat much better and will last longer.
I hope that I have made my self clear. Again it’s my opinion and its worth what you paid for it. As for the NOS before you tie it to your $30k power plant I would suggest that you buy a moped, a set of hand cuffs and over the knee cap boots. After a few hundred miles squirting the giggle juice you will get the idea.

I guess small doses of Nitrous wouldn't be any worse than normalizing w/ a turbo as long as you didn't shoot it w/ more NO2 than it would normally get at sea level. You could say you're "Nitrous normalizing".
Something I've been looking at is Mega Squirt fuel injection http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/megasquirtii-engine-management-system-wpcb3-unassembled-kit-p-59.html. The brain box can control the fuel and spark and you build it yourself with off the shelf GM and Ford parts. The whole setup is cheaper than a certified carb and you can build in two brain boxes, coils, crank triggers, for redundancy. Throw a switch and the only things that would be used w/ both systems are the injectors.
I've also wondered if high quality race rods and pistons from the auto world could crossover to w/ aircraft engines.

haha hilda, you should read up a bit on the ceramic coatings for engines. i thank you for your input, but ceramics on pistons and other engine p[arts do exactly the opposite of your assumptions . ceramic on piston tops creates an extremely efficient barrier to heat. my diesels (for the pulling track) will run full pulls at 2000+* egt....a factory engine most certainly will not. im not suggesting we all start running our planes like that, just an example of ceramic's performance. ceramic is not an abrasive. there are different compounds that go on different parts. some are dry lubricants. the coating on the piston skirts and valvetrain will keep an engine running withzero oil pressure as long as the mains hold out. it reduces friction by huge percentages, and wear is next to zero in normal service intervals. i have to get to work, but this evening ill post a few links and put up some other research here

If you operated an Experimental airplane, with an experimental engine, you can pretty much do whatever you like to it.

I know of at least a couple experimental aircraft running nitrous. I don't think they've been doing it long enough (or perhaps frequently enough) to be able to evaluate its effects on the reliability or longevity of the engine.

The thing to remember on all this is that if your engine grenades on your monster truck, bummer--you tow it home and repair or replace the engine.

On the other hand, if your aircraft engine grenades.....

But, if it's experimental, and you want to do it, go for it, and let us know how it works. I think particularly interesting would be reports on the effects, if any, on the longevity of the engine. There is certainly the possibility that certain coatings applied intelligently, might improve longevity of these engines, and if so, it would be nice to hear about specifics.

MTV

You should read up a bit on the ceramic coatings for engines I suggest you do the same

Ceramics on pistons and other engine parts do exactly the opposite of your assumptions You are mixing Ceramic (apples) up with Dry film
(oranges)

Ceramic on piston tops creates an extremely efficient barrier to heat. My point exactly Not good in an a/c engine

Ceramic is not an abrasive I disagree, it is clear that you are mixing up different items in the coatings not all coatings are CeramicDry (film) lubricants coating on the piston skirts and valve train will keep an engine running with zero oil Dry (film) lubricants are not a ceramic coatings.

Intelligently is the word... No monster truckin. The examples of race engines and pullin tractors are just that. Examples of the limits
That's where my experiences are from.
The nitrous would be neat, and the ability to pull out of smaller lakes with a margin of safety would be great.

The megasquirt is very cool as well. I have more experience with accel dfi. Both are great tools. I'm sure a program could be written that would compensate for altitude and load automatically.
I don't think either one will run a 9 cyl round one tho. Maybe..... Ill find out

Hilda, I assure u I'm not mistaken I don't mean for this to become a flame war. I call them ceramics because that's what we've called them since the beginning. U can call it dry film. Others call them thermals. When I say ceramics, I'm referring to the process.

If you check here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceramic you will see that "ceramics" is a huge topic. Look down the page to the section "Other Applications of Ceramics" for a discussion of its use by Toyota in engines.

This is all very interesting. As an engineer, I think it is way cool that people are creatively trying new stuff to see how they can improve things. The aircraft industry, because of the certification process, is very stagnant. The experimental arena, though, is full of new ideas by folks willing to risk their asses on something new. I say go for it as long as it's only your own butt that's at risk while climbing the learning curve.

As for me, I bought a kit plane that has a good safety record because I wanted someone else to climb that curve first. (chicken clucking)

tom

ps both of you guys are right, partly. Ceramics include tungsten carbide, an excellent wearing surface for some applications, and aluminum oxide, the most common abrasive particle used in sand papers.

I have been applying these coatings for 15 years

http://www.techlinecoatings.com/introdu ... malbarrier

others

http://www.swaintech.com/

Hilda, I would like to hear lots more about why ceramic(whatever u wanna call the proper coating) is bad news bears for an aircraft engine. Creating a barrier between the tender innerds of the engine and the intense heat of combustion seems like a good idea.
At least it has proven itself to me over the years. I honestly want to hear what u have to say...not being a smart ass. I'm no engineer. Just an engine/diesel fuel injection tech. Been tinkerin with these things for some time. I would gladly hop In a plane with" ceramics"
I have full faith in them. I'm sure somewhere out there is a plane with this done.

Been there,,, Done that.. Got the T shirt.... Motor runs great. No problems, so far. .

You should see the look on some pilots faces when they ride in my beast and see the EGT showing 1700+ on take off.

Pics of the motor are at. www.haaspowerair.com

Ben.

http://www.lycon.com/ they will coat exp pistons.