Good-evening Folks.

As mentioned in my introductory post, I am working full-time on a C-170B, for Flight Simulator use. I'm using very advanced tools, and programming methods, to develop this simulation to the highest level of accuracy. You can learn more about the project at http://www.vfrsim.com


I'd like to keep discussion in this thread limited to real-world 170's, and I seek input from pilots who have back-country experience in 170's.. If you would like to discuss items regarding the simulation specifically, please visit the forum at the above website address, or send me a private message.

To those who would like to share their experience, I have written up a brief questionnaire, highlighting a few areas which I am particularly interested in. Also, I encourage users to share photos of their 170's as well. Specifically photos that might details any modifications done to the aircraft, interior or exterior.


170B Questions:

1.) Background on the aircraft.
Year:
Engine:
Prop:
Empty Weight: (if you've had the aircraft on scales. Also detail definition of empty weight..)

Specify the modifications done to your 170, or a 170 that you've flown, that provide the greatest performance benefit in the backcountry.
Specify the modifications that provide the greatest convenience.
Specify any interior modifications, including custom panel/instruments, seats, harness, baggage area.

Then feel free to detail said modifications. Anything from personal experience, PIREP, pricing, headaches associated with.. Anything!

2.) Type of flying done in the aircraft
What field elevations, atmospheric conditions, regions. Anything specific to the type of flying you've done in the 170.

3.) Hind-sight
After having several hours of flight experience with your 170. What would you have done different thus far? Anything you would have left stock? Anything you wish the previous owner would have left alone? Any add-ons that didn't live up to their advertising?

4.) Fore-Sight
Looking ahead, what would you like to do to your 170? Let's make it fun... You've got an extra $40,000, and the wife says "Put it into the airplane".. *chuckle..

I look forward to the responses here. I'll likely target some of you with more detailed questions (Rob, I'm looking at you..) as there are a few grey areas yet in my research, which has hence been very exhaustive.

Best regards!
- Joseph

1953 Cessna 170B
Continental C-145-2
Empty weight: 1336lbs with unusable fuel and 8qts oil
Mods: Sportsman Stol kit, McCauley 1A175DM8042 prop, Cleveland double puck brakes, 26" Alaskan Bushwheels, AKBW "baby bush" tailwheel, spin on oil filter, Odyssey SBS J16 battery, EZ-Flap handle extension, Atlee Dodge folding rear jump seats, light weight custom leather seats, front seat shoulder harnesses, Selkirk extended baggage area, baggage area cargo net, lightweight "utility" interior with 1/4" Selkirk closed cell foam, Rosen visors, custom VFR panel with Airgizmos iPad Mini panel dock, Garmin 496 mounted in AirGizmos panel dock.

I'm pretty happy with how my 170 has turned out. With its limited power I've still managed some great trips. I'm based at sea level but I've flown it quite a bit at high altitudes, my highest landing was off airport at over 8600ft with a DA over 10k. I've flown it into the majority of backcountry strips in the western United States (Washington, Oregon, Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, Utah, Nevada, and California).

If I had a whole lot more money to spend on the 170 it would probably be a Stoots aviation IO-360 and a 3 blade MT prop, or maybe a Contenental 210HP IO-360, CGR-30, Del-Air extended range tanks, 31" Alaskan Bushwheels on 180 gear, V-brace, Wing-X extensions (if and when they ever get STCd in the U.S.), and maybe VGs... I'm sure I could find some more stuff to add as well

Nicest 170 "backcountry" plane on the planet!

Good-day,
I've researched all of the items on Rob's list of upgrades... Dang man! You put down some cash! But more importantly, these are some quality mods! Hey, are the EZ-Flap extensions just as handy as they claim? I was curious, at the 30-40 degree settings, is it more comfortable to just reach beyond the extension, and grab the main handle? I'm over 6', and In my estimation it seems that would be the case for me..

This combination would appear to be the perfect setup, for a 145 horse 170. The 26" Alaskans..super, but not overkill. The Sportsman STOL, of course.

And, it's very interesting the first on your list, if money was not a big factor, being the Stoot's STC'd Lycoming, and the newly STC's 3-blade from MT. These are both items that I'm working toward incorporating into the Sim+170B.

Received all of the technical data this morning, straight from Germany, regarding all 3 of the MT approved propellers that can be installed on Lycoming (I)O-360 powered 170's. I'm anxious to crunch some of the numbers, and see what kind of performance gains might be expected, for guys currently running with these conversions. Essentially, in layman's terms, I can mathematically use the hard data, and replicate what mind be expected, based on different power settings, air density, and airspeed.

Terry Godes just installed his 3-blade MT (MTV-9-B/200-52) on his 170. He seems impressed thus far..

I know many users here might frown at the use of composite propellers in the backcountry. I'd welcome any discussion on it!

Back on topic, let's see... Oh, the CGR-3. Nice! That would be fun, and I'm curious, who else here is interested in the WING-X being approved here??

Another can of worms perhaps, but are there any stall fences that are approved for use with the Sportsman? Maybe at this point, they wouldn't make much difference? Just a thought..

- Joseph

With regards to the EZ-Flap handle... When flying off airport (or practicing for it) on takeoff I will get the tail up asap, accelerate flaps up to about 35-40mph (depending on weight), and use the EZ-Flap to pull in 40 degrees of flap while simultaneously pulling back on the yoke to rotate off the ground. From this point I immediately reduce my angle of attack while slowly bringing the flaps back to zero and staying in ground effect to build speed. Or transition into a VX climb at 48mph and flaps 20 if I have immediate obstacles to clear. I've found this technique gets me off the ground as quick and slow as possible. Watch some STOL competitions and you'll see a lot of this technique being used. On approach to landing I'll use the EZ-Flap handle to pull on the first 10 or 20 degrees of flaps then use the regular hand position on the flap handle for the last 2 positions. I'm 6'3" with long arms for comparison.

As far as STOL fences go, there are some planes out there that have them with the Sportsman. All of them were left on the plane from previously installed STOL kits such as the Horton. AKTahoe1's 180 is set up this way along with the Wing-X.

Joseph,

'53 170B. Mostly operating in Interior Alaska- home field elevations between 1500' and 2000'. Regular climbs to 12,000', and glacier take-offs/ landings at around 7,000', but generally in low D.A. conditions. About equal time operating light and at gross. I've got around 70 hours since doing the engine, prop and Sportsman. Totally happy with it. The guys at Flight Resource very generously gave me the option of an exchange for a 3-blade MT prop when the STC was finalized, but I have to say I'm very happy with the 2-blade, and I'd need some compelling numbers to justify the extra 10 lbs on the nose. Weight is what I've sacrificed. I've got all basic configurations weighed: Skis/ wheels/ with and without Atlee seats. Basically right at 1,500 on the scales. Next up I am getting into my interior- usual story of outdated, pretty random materials from prior owners. If somebody offered to buy me the Del-Air long-range tank conversion I'd consider it, but I'm rarely range-limited, so not a priority and not worth the down-time. The only reason I'd probably look at the Wing-X, if it ever comes through, is if it included the GW increase, like it currently does in Canada. And if money was no object, I'd throw on some Ti main gear. As much for the strength and zero-time history, as for the weight reduction.

-DP



IO-360M1B 180HP Conversion
MTV-15-B/210-58 Prop
CGR-30P Engine Analyzer/ Fuel Flow
Tanis Pre-Heat

Sportsman STOL
RMD Wingtips
LED lighting w/ MaxPulse Control
Float Kit
Lift Eyes
Windshield V-brace
C-180 Gear Legs
Pponk Gear Beef-up Kit
Steel Axles
Cleveland Double-puck Brakes
29” ABW
26” Goodyear Tires
8.50 x 6 Tires
ABW Baby Bush Wheel
Scott 3200 Tailwheel
Ski Rigged
Aero 3000 Skis, oversize UHMW bases
Burl’s Magnum Tail Ski
Abrasion Boots on Horizontal
Heated Pitot
Belly Fuel Drain
Titanium Tail Spring (in progress)

Modern VFR Panel
Center-stack Radios
Garmin 695
Garmin GNC 250XL Nav/Com
4-place Intercom with Audio Input
Copilot Push-to-talk
Halon Fire Extinguisher
406/GPS ELT

BAS Shoulder Harnesses (Seaplane Style)
BAS Tail-pull Handles
Atlee Dodge jumpseats
Second-row Shoulder Belts
Custom Flush-floor Extended Baggage
Cargo Area Tie-down Rings
Rosen Visors

The O- (or IO-) 360 engine conversions are really the ultimate mod for a 170 B in my opinion. And, combined with those engines, the MT props are the only way to go.

The Sportsman STOL kit would be next on my list of "big" mods.

BAS harnesses are mandatory, in my opinion.

My 170 B had the Fairbanks Aero Services rear sling seat, which is on the type certificate. That setup is light, but if I were going to do one, I'd stick with the Atlee Dodge folding rear seats.

Good basic instrumentation and simplification of the panel is a great idea, and Rob's looks really nice. I removed the panel insert and built a new insert, moving the instrument holes closer together. That allowed the installation of one more primary instrument, as well as a panel dock for a portable GPS.

My airplane also had the Flint Aero tip tanks, for a total of 60 gallons of useable fuel. Given a choice, I'd probably opt for the larger C-175 tanks or the Del-Aire mod to increase the stock tank size, rather than the Flints, but the Flint tanks give you outstanding range, and if you don't want that much gas, it's easier to know how much gas you're carrying. My airplane had a fuel computer installed....a really nice mod. Managing fuel with the Flint tip tanks can get a little busy, but it's not that big a deal. If you need lots of gas, that's the way to go, and installation really isn't that big a deal.

Early Cessna 180 landing gear is a very nice mod, to get the AOA up sitting on the ground.

Tail pull handles are mandatory in my opinion.

I forget the exact empty weight of my airplane but it was less than 1400 pounds.....1356 rings a bell, but....

My interior was standard off the shelf Airtex, except the front seat upholstery, which I got from Airtex at OSH for a screaming deal, like 50% off on a set they'd made for someone, who bailed on them......those are REALLY nice upholstery, and I installed confor foam cushions on those seats.

I didn't strip the interior as others here have done....too much work, and I liked the upholstery and headliner.

LED landing/taxi lights.

Etc.

MTV

Interesting on the EZ Flap. I installed it for my wife who physically could not reach the handle when her shoulder harness was anything like snug. I hated it for cluttering up the cockpit at first but now really like it. I do think it could be about 2" shorter though. Only use it for the 10 and 20 degree, then switch to the handle.

I do the same takeoff as Rob, but have never pulled in more than 20 degrees, I do it without letting go of the button/trigger and release the flaps slowly in ground effect while gaining speed. My home strip has trees all around and is kind of in a wind shadow so it is nice to have a little extra speed to pop through the turbulent air at treetop height.

Maybe Ill go and play with 40 degrees. Met a high time 170 pilot who had shortened his flap handle by 4" and I liked that too. He had done it at the pivot end very carefully and it was hard to tell that it was not stock.

I too would like a bigger motor, but Sportsman is next for me. And maybe build a Bushmaster.

Such great information guys!

DP: I sent you a private message, with a few more questions.

I'd love to see some photos of your instrument layout. Sounds pretty capable with the equipment you mention.
Very generous of Flight Resources! But if you're satisfied with the current set-up, why change? Sounds like a great combo.

It would be interesting to see what kind of weight could be shed, with some interior work. As you mention.

The idea of Wing-X potentially getting an STC & bump up the GWR, that would be interesting.

Have the Rosen visors proved handy?


MTV:

I'd also love more photos of your bird! I have to agree with you guys, the B.A.S. stuff is hard to beat. Everyone I talk to really raves about it.

I wasn't familiar with the Flint Aero tip tanks. Probably not the most common on 170's, I would presume?

I've talked to several with 175 tanks and or 175 wings.

Regarding gear, for '53/'54 170's, It's my understanding that from the factory they wore the 'Lady Legs'..correct? From my data, that would seem the case. Then, most commonly upgraded to early 180 gear for most of off airport guys. I have virtually no reports yet from anyone with the Ti gear. Do you guys know any 170 folks, who are currently operating the the Ti gear? I was going to send Mr. Anderson an email, with regard to some other questions I have on the 210 horse re-introduced XM mods, so I'll likely learn more from him.

1350's for weight? Sounds really good..

daedaluscan

Thanks for the feedback on the EZ-Flap handles. Speaking from my own perspective, I should think that my experience would be the same. It would take some getting used to. However, with that said, there would be so many times where it might be convenient. I HATE having to move about during TO and landing.

I'm really appreciating the replies folks. Digesting a lot of information this past couple weeks. Translating information and hard data, or any such thing into code, is a little mind-bending at best. Should be worth it though!

- Joseph

The lady legs are mid 1953-1956.

VFRsim wrote:The idea of Wing-X potentially getting an STC & bump up the GWR, that would be interesting.

Have the Rosen visors proved handy?

- Joseph

Rosen visors are fine. It's more that the factory ones are adequate at best. I get a laugh out of people listing them on their for-sale ads next to TTAF and SMOH, as if I'm going to buy/ not buy their airplane based on the visors in it.

Here is the Wing-X GW graph for the 170B. 2400 lbs. Only applies in Canada so far, and requires 180HP or better.

-DP

Thanks gents!

For those of you who haven't followed Kyle Fosso's story, I've posted a blurb about him, and his 1954 Cessna 170B at the following:

http://www.vfrsim.com/joining-forces/

VFR Simulations has teamed with him, sharing resources, and taking Kyle's story global.

A few photos from the story:




- Joseph

VFRsim wrote:For those of you who haven't followed Kyle Fosso's story, I've posted a blurb about him, and his 1954 Cessna 170B at the following:



- Joseph

Very cool! I think I spoke with him a couple years ago when he was getting into this project. It's great to see it coming together so well. Nice job!

-DP

I'm looking forward to seeing his 170 when he gets her flying-- he's based at Anacortes, only about 30 miles north of me, so I'm sure I will. Very nice looking airplane, and oughta be a great performer with that IO-360. Is Kyle a member here at BCP?
FWIW another guy up at Anacortes, who built all the new hangars, has a real nice looking 180hp C170B with a similar color scheme. The two of them in formation would make a great in-flight photo.

About three or four years ago this tall blond "kid" walks up to my hanger looking for something to do and says he is building a 170 back home. Sure you are. He helped out in the shop and I took him flying around the bay.

So Kyle comes up here to fish every summer. By fish i mean drift commercially . This summer the sockeye show up real late so I show him some 4930s with a shitload of -5 cleacos and say get with it. I come in the next morning and the holes are filled. I fit another twenty feet of coming and he comes back to bang some more.

Kyle is an animal! I didnt know he was the same kind of anal retentive perfectionist I was… He is building a work of art!


Rocket

rocket wrote:,,,,

Kyle is an animal! I didnt know he was the same kind of anal retentive perfectionist I was… He is building a work of art!

Sure thing he is..

When the aircraft was going into the paint shop, unfortunately Kyle got very ill. (lack of sleep..too much work on the airplane maybe?!). He powered through it, and got the fuselage done on time. Did most of the prep himself. I spoke with him afterwords, and he said that he really just needed a few days off. I concurred!

- Joseph