Posting this thread for my Dad (Derek) who is 58 years old and wanting to learn to fly. He is specifically looking at a 180HP Super Cub vs Cessna 180. We have narrowed the choices down to these two planes so please focus on these types only. He needs all the advice he can get from anyone other than me


His mission profile/background:

-Operating at the ranch, field elevation is 4,600' with DA's from 6-9K in the summer. High winds in the region (average days gust into high teens and 20's), its not uncommon for the winds to get in the 30-40's (mph). We have 3 crosswind runways and a 3800' E/W. Powerful Thermals are an everyday part of life flying in the warmer months. He will be commuting back and forth from the ranch to San Antonio, TX.

-Zero flying instruction or hours logged

-Wants a plane he can learn in and be able to haul at least my Mom (5'0"), 2 40lb dogs, an average sized ice chest, plus a couple medium size bags. He is concerned after looking at a couple Super Cubs that he will not be able to haul that much? Please enlighten... Obviously, the 180 will haul as much as he needs.

-Not as concerned about speed in cruise between the planes at this point.

-Safety is the biggest concern in the plane he will learn in. What do you think would be better to learn in the 180HP Super Cub or a Cessna 180 (most likely 520 powered). He is not ruling out the 0-320 powered Super cub, the one we have a line on just happens to be 180HP.

-In either plane he will learn the basics and solo in Llano, TX, where there is a nice big wide grass runway, 1100' field elevation. Once he can solo, I know a couple other really good instructors that are local to the Big Bend and can get him dialed in on flying in the mountains and dealing with the winds and DA's.

Thanks for the help, and we are aware that many of these questions are subjective and depend on the pilot. So what I am asking for is your personal experience and opinion? Please don't bash on anyone's opinions/experiences and turn it into another battle thread...I really need help getting him a wide variety of information and opinions.

-Luke

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Having flown both planes (not nearly as much as some here,) I'd rather learn in the Super Cub.

I'd rather travel and camp with the 180, especially with my wife and/or dog along. My wife hates sitting in the back seat, but she's not trained enough to run engine controls, radios, GPS, etc were I to put her in front.

If I was only flying solo, I'd take the Super Cub and make it work for everything, because it would probably mean I was single and therefore all I would do is fly, with time to burn at 95mph.

This is an obvious choice as far as I am concerned, however there are people here with a LOT more experience in these two airplanes than I.

The following suggestion is limited to what would be the best option for a basic trainer, given the two choices mentioned.

For a primary trainer, one of the world's best and most loved airplanes is the 65HP J-3 Cub. Hundreds of thousands of pilots have learned in Cubs.

Buy the 180HP Super Cub, and limit the power to 85 horsepower, just over half of what you have available. 85 horse will compensate for the slightly heavier weight of the Super Cub, and provide adequate power for good climbout in warm summer weather.

Put a stop on the throttle lever that the instructor can bypass (emergency power) but the student can't. As the student gains skills, the instructor can give him more power available. When he's ready, he will have a highly capable airplane, without having spent any extra money on a separate trainer, or renting a trainer, etc.

Luke,

Is he buying to learn in, or buying to keep?

IMHO, If he is buying to learn in, the cub with it's simpler systems, slower speed, and more forgiving wing is a better trainer. there are a few times when things get busy in a 180, that just don't exist in a cub... Guy's with 1000 TT flying a cub look like the Chuck Yeagers of the backcountry The 180 will be less forgiving till you get a little more 'dialed in'. The cub can have wayyy, wayyy more fun factor built in to it for a low time pilot...

On the other hand.... The ultimate mission you describe will have him outgrowing the cub in very short order. You can't haul much and keep your wife comfortable, you get nowhere fast, and the utility factor is much less than the 180...

As you've already figured out, a big engined, big wheeled, light 180 will do 90% of what a cub will do, and it doesn't sound like that last 10% is in your dads mission profile... Don't get me wrong, there are things the cub will do that the 180 simply can't do without undo punishment or risk, but again, it doesn't sound like that's what he intends to do...

Personally I *think* the survivability of a wreck is much better in a cub, but just because most wrecks we see tend to be landings gone bad, and in a cub, that means a slower wreck, with steel around you rather than aluminum... best idea here... don't wreck

Back to the trainer part... I have to agree with Ez.... a 65hp tcart or J3 would serve wayyy better, but then it doesn't fit the final mission well...

I'll shoot you a PM with another thought or two...

Take care, Rob

EZ has a good idea. It was common to limit throttle when moving up to Super Cubs from T carts etc. don't need an actual throttle stop. Just put some masking tape where you need it. Easy to over ride when needed. Worked when I got to Alaska with my Luscombe. First job was Super Cub on Tundra tires.
Anyway, he might just love the tandem to learn in. Then use it around the ranch. Good vis on both sides!

Zzz wrote:... because it would probably mean I was single and therefore all I would do is fly, with time to burn at 95mph.

And that would mean you'd have one bad azzzz super cub, because most 'bush worthy' examples are lucky to see those speeds pointed straight down

Hmmm....

If your Mom & Dad like each other and plan to fly together, I would recommend the Cessna. Having the person you are wanting to share adventures with sitting beside you, I find much more enjoyable than having them behind. I have both the Cub and the Cessna's.... Love flying the Cub, but like sharing flight in the Cessna. Having a smiling face & pretty eyes right beside you is priceless!!

As far as your dad's plans.....

If he wants to buy a plane now, so be it. You know my choice. But a couple other thoughts...

Two people, two dogs and a cooler?
A Cub might carry the weight, but I don't think you'll fit it all in, wouldn't fit in my 77' PA-18, at least to the point it's enjoyable. Would be a very capable tail wheel trainer, actually more than I would recommend anyone to learn in...just hope he doesn't break it while learning.

The Cessna will fit and carry the load with out a thought, especially with the rear seat out. Overall great airplane, but again, I would not recommend it for a trainer. Even harder to fix than the cub if something got bent.
With the higher horsepower and complexities of either choice, I would say the extra management is a hindrance to learning the basics of flight.

If he is really considering either of these planes, he can afford to get a basic old 172....learn to be confident and comfortable in it, and then move into the higher horse power tail wheels.

Just saying... what I would recommend.

NVflyer...Dave

If he indeed is adamant that he wants to buy one and only one airplane, both to learn in and to keep later, then the 180 is the only rational choice, based on the average load that you just described. As others have noted, the back seat of a Super Cub can be a really bad place to spend time in as well....my wife LOVES side by side seating in the Cessna....she hated the back seat of the SC I owned previously. THat's a pretty big load for a (legal) super Cub, by the way, assuming he'd carry much gas.

The 180 is going to have a MUCH steeper learning curve, and it WILL take him longer to solo and finish his training. If he's not worried about that, I'd say the 180 wins hands down.

MTV

Wow, really appreciate all the quick replies, keep em comin

Another note:

I've had a hard time relaying to my Dad how significantly the HP affects the performance on light planes. Coming from an automotive and heavy equipment background, he is having a hard time comprehending just how much difference 30-50HP makes on these planes, and how challenging they can be. Please share more of your thoughts on that as well. If he buys a C-180, I'm gonna try to convince him to solo in a 172 or the likes first.

He wants to know why he can't just get a 520 powered 180, jump in and go for it...I know, pretty optimistic. I've been pitching the idea of the cub as a trainer that will help him develop the skills to fly a C-180. Also, we have a great instructor with tons of super cub time at the closest airport to the ranch. The cub would not be his keep forever plane, but more of a stepping stone, correct me if you think I am confused. I soloed a 172, then 7 hours in a SC, then transitioned and finished my ticket in the 180. That was a huge challenge, it has been hard for me to express to him how much of a challenge that was, and continues to be...

I've heard people say that it's better to learn in the plane you are going to fly, but boy I sure am glad that I had a bunch of hours tri-gear before going tailwheel. It was enough to learn the legalities and weather in an easier to land plane. When I transitioned to tailwheel then all I had to do was learn the differences.

I know lots of guys that have learned in a 180. As long as he is aware of the increased time he will be spending dual, then it is not any type of obstacle he cant overcome. You learned in something different then transitioned to the 180 so you knew simple first, then got alot more stacked on you. If he starts out in the 180 he wont know the difference and it will just seem normal to him.

I'll say it! Buy a mall!

Rob wrote:

Zzz wrote:... because it would probably mean I was single and therefore all I would do is fly, with time to burn at 95mph.

And that would mean you'd have one bad azzzz super cub, because most 'bush worthy' examples are lucky to see those speeds pointed straight down

Mine cruises at 94mph @ 2450.

Learn in the Cub!

soyAnarchisto wrote:I'll say it! Buy a mall!

Here's a list of a bunch of malls for sale in Texas even!

One other item of microscopic importance... is this a "money is no object" kind of deal, or is your old man in the same boat as the rest of us?

The answer drives a big part of the decison, and for more than just one reason. Forget about any equality or inequality in the purchase price.

The Cub route will be less expensive in the beginning, and in the long run. That's talking gas, maintenance, insurance, and annuals. However a Cessna is much more tolarant of being stored outdoors in the weather and TX sunshine. A Cub will be much more happy under a shade, or in a hangar.

If he is starting at 58 years old, then the time it takes to learn new skills is a little longer. More importantly, how much time does he want to be chained to an instructor before he can solo, or go out and fly his mission, fly with the wife, etc.? So prolonging the instruction process (to allow safe student operation of a 180) may have an impact on his enjoyment.

An insurance company, looking at a brand new pilot in a 520 powered 180, is going to require a larger number of dual hours. Then they're going to hit you hard in the wallet anyway for the first X hours.

I believe all of the high-time pilots here will agree that the weight, speed, energy, complexity, and pilot workload all favor initial flight training in the Cub.

SoyAnarchisto wrote: I'll say it! Buy a mall!

Haha, I actually got him to go to the Lonestar Maule Fly-in the other week so he could look at Maules. I want him to get a cub and build a Bearhawk!!! Maules are still on the table though...

Thread creepin my own dang thread...back to cubs vs. 180 for learning purposes please

EZ Flap wrote:
One other item of microscopic importance... is this a "money is no object" kind of deal, or is your old man in the same boat as the rest of us?

Money is definitely of concern, and he is scared of buying a trainer and then needing to sell it to get what he really wants and taking a big $$$ hit. The cub we are looking at is almost brand new and only 400 hours Experimental, known commodity. It would be a great deal and should not lose any $$$ after only flying for 6-12 months. Since he will be flying in pursuance of our ranching operation like I do, within the legal limitations for a Private Pilot only, some of the costs will be able to be written off etc.

My thoughts are that he can get the cub and learn to fly in it, as well as learn about his options for a bigger plane along the way. I want him to have fun learning to fly and not scare the shit out of himself and walk away. If someone can't have fun flying a cub, flying just might not be for them

My Dad is not the most patient guy in the world, so that is a big part of my thinking that a cub will be best in the beginning. I totally agree with what akavidflyer said about learning in the 180, but think that for my Dad the cub is the way to go and he can get out on his own and be flying quicker and, at least IMO, be operating a plane that is much less complicated, easier to fly, and much more forgiving, YMMV.

The jist of this is that I am a low-time inexperienced pilot and my opinions should be suspect, so I really want guys/gals who have been there done that to chime in and give him a wider variety of information/experience/opinions for him to consider.

Thanks again for everyone's input!!!

I see alot of people pointing to the cub because it is easier to learn to fly in and safer.. yeah, a cub will just barely go fast enough to kill you, but they still end up killing alot of people every year, due in a large part to the line of thinking that, its only a cub, its easy to fly... While it may be easy to fly, it is not easy to fly WELL. This is evidenced by the number of guys I see floating half way down the runway before touching down etc.

A 180 hp cub is a blast to fly, but it will still kill you when you get complacent just as fast as the 180 or any other faster heavier machine will.

I know a couple guys here that bought a 152, learned to fly and the day they got their ticket they went out and bought a 185 and transitioned right into it. The 185 was the first TD either had flown and the only plane they had flown other than the 152. It can be done pretty easily.

I am kind of with ya on the buy the cub now and build the bearhawk later line of thinking!

I have a mere 150 hrs so take this for what it’s worth. I soloed in a C172 at 10 hours, and got my ticket at 48 hours. After 120 hours or so I got 10 hours in a 65hp J3. I have since purchased a ’53 C180 and have about 10 hours on it. The J3 was fun, and I progressed well. I have had several instructors and DPEs comment on my proficiency as a pilot, especially basic stick and rudder skills. That being said, I feel slightly retarded and just barely “ahead of” the 180. I have UTMOST respect for the 180 after reading many posts here and elsewhere. I can’t compare to a SuperCub’s performance specifically, but I DO wish I had learned from the start in a taildragger. It might have been a few more hours before I soloed, but I would have learned what my feet are for from the beginning! Thousands of pilots during WWII and after can’t be wrong…

For the thread and a few questions we haven't discussed or may be beneficial to the thread.
I think I was under the impression the cub would maybe be a keeper. If not, why not open up the spectrum a little. Maybe a cheaper super cub or a maule or 170?? I know I know. Stick to the 180vcub.
The other issue is the 520 180 would not be able to have much $ put into it safely if wanted to bail out. Right? So...once again opens up the buying field no?
Sticking to the thread more,...
The cub.. No problem to learn in. In my opinion. Also in my HUMBLE opinion some of us apparently see the advantage of learning in a say,,underpowered plane. Not learning to depend on the power to bail you out of situations and learning to FLY the plane regardless of power. Better feel development I feel. But not a reason not to buy.
The 180. Yep. You can learn to ride horses on a wild mustang but... Takes a special person, instructor, and patience. Which means more $ usually as well. Can it be done? No doubt.. Just a few extra variables.
I would lean toward the "temporary" s cub and plan on convincing him to keep it and adding a 185 to the heard down the road. With a pod,,, For yalls use type.
Gotta run but I'll probably add to it some shortly.
Whatever you do don't listen to rob!