Can you put a pponk -50 in a birddog? I have my eye on one locally that is a little rough around the edges. Im so happy with my -50 in my skylane...and i think a birddog would be amazing with one of these in it.

Mike

MIke,

I do not recall an STC for a -50 in the old dog. A different engine and prop sure would be nice. The -11 and -15 are getting hard to overhaul and even the influx of -15 prop parts from the looting of Egyptian tombs, hasn't helped much. There is an old IO-520 STC and Steve Noyes has done an STC for an IO-540. He told me the dog does not get much faster. It seems the rear windshield area has enormous coke bottle drag. I would have loved to loose that enormous gearbox on the rear of the -11 & -15 and if I never had to overhaul that carb again it would be nice. Actually, the saving in carb overhauls could almost cover the cost of the STC. I did fly the turbine Birddog, with 385 hp, not all that much faster either, accelerated better though.

It can and has been done in the past. I am not so sure it would be feasible in today's FAA, but a talk with Steve Knopp would be in order. I flew one off and on for a couple years, with a -50 (before they quit letting you keep the high compression top ends)... 300hp and an 86" Mac. It would go like stink in cruise 148 @ 22/2250, climb to sky writing altitude with 50 gallons of oil on board with no issues, or tow as big a sign as any of the tricked out cubs...
Flaps 60 make it an awesome machine, too bad most people that fly them are afraid to use them

only problem with that bird in that application was that a good cub could haul as good or bigger sign with two less cylinders to feed, and a good husky could do the same and cruise to the next gig at bird dog speeds...

Rob wrote:It can and has been done in the past. I am not so sure it would be feasible in today's FAA, but a talk with Steve Knopp would be in order. I flew N82WM off and on for a couple years, with a -50 (before they quit letting you keep the high compression top ends)... 300hp and an 86" Mac. It would go like stink in cruise 148 @ 22/2250, climb to sky writing altitude with 50 gallons of oil on board with no issues, or tow as big a sign as any of the tricked out cubs...
Flaps 60 make it an awesome machine, too bad most people that fly them are afraid to use them

only problem with that bird in that application was that a good cub could haul as good or bigger sign with two less cylinders to feed, and a good husky could do the same and cruise to the next gig at bird dog speeds...

This machine used to tow banners out of SZP -Santa Paula ,CA. I worked on it years ago. The P.Ponk was NOT approved and they did this anyway --Hangered when not flying

This engine installation was in fact approved and installed while the aircraft was operating under a restricted cat. A/W. It has traded hands a few times and been wrecked since I last flew her, but the documentation is still there...

But what's worse suggesting someone else's a/c is un airworthy, or suggesting you as an IA worked on it and continued to return it to service in an un airworthy condition


And for the record it isn't the only bird dog around with a -50 under the hood. There were several examples to be found when there was still an IBDA site...

Rob wrote:This engine installation was in fact approved and installed while the aircraft was operating under a restricted cat. A/W. It has traded hands a few times and been wrecked since I last flew her, but the documentation is still there...

But what's worse suggesting someone else's a/c is un airworthy, or suggesting you as an IA worked on it and continued to return it to service in an un airworthy condition

The outfit also had a AG-Cat also yellow that was towing banners -they shared the same hanger .When I saw the airplane it was"restricted to aerial towing"and not approved at that time> I didn't install motor but do know who did,this was in or late 1990's . A&P who did install is now i.e revocation (because of something else) -Work I did on this specimen was limited to replacing elevators, and repainting tail after someone hit them with tug. There is a STC to install 0-470-R from the Bird dog club. My buddy who has a L-19 D has a 0-470-R in his machine.

Bill,

I know the 'then' owner both the cat and the dog quite well... go figure... I can assure you that the engine installation was within the scope of the Operating Limitations issued with the Restricted / Aerial Advertising A/W, as I have personally been ramped on big tow days in that plane... In fact the engine install was one of the compelling reasons to put this bird dog was flying under a Restricted cat. A/W otherwise it would have been fine to tow under a standard A/W all day long. The Cat on the other hand being an ex ag bird had no recourse but to get issued a restricted Aerial / Advertising A/W (something else that won't happen in todays FAA )

I am all A-OK with friendly disagreements and banter that goes hand in hand with the http://www... but when you post things that could begin an FAA investigation, it goes beyond that, and doing a good thorough homework check is in order... better yet.. leave it off the web

Once again I've had my share of this cr@p... this time could have been alot better spent in an airplane.....later

IBDA is still going, but I do not the think the 470R STC is still being offered or active. While a nice conversion it also had limited prop selection. You need an STC to give a workable combination of both, and of course somebody to buy it from. The 470R was literally a drop in and fit nicely and was lighter.

There is a really nice Birddog for sale here in Maine. Complete rebuild like new with LYC 0540, Hartzell 3 blade, amphibs and FliLite retract skis. I have been in the back seat, its a rocket ship in all ways. Its called a super dog conversion, done by Steve Noyes of ME/MA. PM me if you want the owners contact.

Jim

There is a company in the states that was building up birddogs for the Canadians as glider tugs, for the life of me I can't remember the guys name but they put something close to 300hp in them and they were amazing..... Things are doable!

The guys name is Steve Noyes, from MA, has moved his business to Millinocket, Me. He doesnt have a website yet, but his blog is here;

http://birddogsteve.blogspot.com/

He has a canadian glider tug dog in rebuild right now, and is working on STC for 180 tail on a birddog.
The man is a wizard with a birddog, and a really nice guy.

Jim

I have Steve's number at my shop..... He uses my gascolators for the Super Dog conversion....
I can get it on Monday..

Brian

182dude wrote:Can you put a pponk -50 in a birddog? I have my eye on one locally that is a little rough around the edges. Im so happy with my -50 in my skylane...and i think a birddog would be amazing with one of these in it.

Mike

Mike, first let me apologize for being part of your thread going 'inflammatory' and then silent... Your question is a good one, and deserved better. The entire C305 line from L-19, thru Ector, and including the Siai, are bad azzz birds. And yes, an L19 type (in the right hands) with manual flaps and a Pponk (if kept light) absolutely rocks...

More to the point of your question, again yes, it has been done (many times) and to contradict myself, I believe yes, it probably still can be done, but would require a little more due diligence, and leg work than the past.

Background; during the time line prior to that our over zealous IA is describing, lots could be done just by having an aircraft in a restricted cat....Just look at some of the flying excuses for an ag plane during those times Or some of the exotic things the bigger banner tow outfits were getting away with, look at what Alaskans were hauling on the side of a plane just hanging the restricted cat sign on it (oh wait... they're still doing that )... but of course times have changed, and not recently either.... The first time the airplane described by Bill had a Pponk on it, it was under those early circumstances. The last pponk that went on it (that I know of, since it has traded hands a few times since) went on by virtue of the same exact process any of us would be going through today with a standard A/W vert. I actually have the copies of everything that went in that airplane until the last flight I took with it If you ever get serious about a Pponk'd 'Dog shoot me a PM and I would be more than happy to share what I have / know about the subject.

BTW, a question came up recently between a friend and I about which way to go on the Pponk high comp vs. low, and late case vs early case... I have a few opinions about that stuff too, and some not so popular

Here's something for the doubtful crowd to chew on;

Brian - Steve's Aircraft wrote:I have Steve's number at my shop..... He uses my gascolators for the Super Dog conversion....
I can get it on Monday..

Brian

I forgot about this thread.....

Steve's number is 978-836-0361

Brian.

Rob wrote:...........an L19 type (in the right hands) with manual flaps and a Pponk (if kept light) absolutely rocks... More to the point of your question, again yes, it has been done (many times) and to contradict myself, I believe yes, it probably still can be done, but would require a little more due diligence, and leg work than the past. ..........

Although I don't have a mechanic's ticket, I'm always interested in how the paperwork for a mod is written up. The Seattle FSDO stamp in block 3 on this 337 caught my eye. The aircraft owner is in North Andover Mass, the mechanic (block 6-conformity statement) is in Ojai CA, and the IA (block 7-return to service) is Ponk in Stanwood WA. I always wonder about the back story when I see a geographical spread like this. We had a guy move up here who was an IA, for a while he did some mods & had his old FAA inspector in Californa do the field approvals. Later on he worked with the local inspector, don't know if the FAA put the kibosh on his long-distance approvals or if he just finally got to know the local inspector & vice versa.

hotrod150 wrote:

Rob wrote:...........an L19 type (in the right hands) with manual flaps and a Pponk (if kept light) absolutely rocks... More to the point of your question, again yes, it has been done (many times) and to contradict myself, I believe yes, it probably still can be done, but would require a little more due diligence, and leg work than the past. ..........

Although I don't have a mechanic's ticket, I'm always interested in how the paperwork for a mod is written up. The Seattle FSDO stamp in block 3 on this 337 caught my eye. The aircraft owner is in North Andover Mass, the mechanic (block 6-conformity statement) is in Ojai CA, and the IA (block 7-return to service) is Ponk in Stanwood WA. I always wonder about the back story when I see a geographical spread like this. We had a guy move up here who was an IA, for a while he did some mods & had his old FAA inspector in Californa do the field approvals. Later on he worked with the local inspector, don't know if the FAA put the kibosh on his long-distance approvals or if he just finally got to know the local inspector & vice versa.

Work airplanes from coast to coast (and aerial advertising will literally take you from coast to coast if you let it) and let me know how keeping ownership / registration, all purchases, maintenance, and inspections in one FSDO works out for you shoot one trip from the east coat to long beach in a cub burns up a good chunk of a 100 insp

Nor is this limited to any one type of flying... During the summer 'corn run' it is pretty common place to see an Ag airplane from a southern state brought up to say...any of the 'I' states, and then have an engine eat itself, where by an engine shop from say... Tulsa will haul a loaner out and R&R the engine right there on the ramp so no more valuable time is lost, while that airplane is on it's money making run away from home.... Pilot from one state, in another states airplane, flying in a complete different state, with an engine from yet another state installed by a mechanics from.... It really doesn't have to be a conspiracy theory

I didn't mean to imply any skullduggery, just curious. I didn't stop to consider it was a working airplane, and maybe out "on the road" for that reason.

Had an acquaintance who hangars his plane in Utah's Territory(Salt Lake FSDO), get grief from the Denver FSDO, because his residence is across town in Denver's 'Territory!' Durango area. Must have been afraid of lost business?

To the OP, There are two O-470-50 Bird Dogs based at the same seaplane base here in Alaska- both are on floats. At least one of them has got the 3-blade McCauley 401. Both are legit.

-DP

I have seen at least one L-19 with a "standard" O-470 in it, but they all came with an O-470 -11 (I think) and not sure you can do much with one of those. I'd call Ponk.

MTV