Dudes, my O470 with the stock prop speaks with a glorious Barry White baritone that makes the ladies go weak in the knees. Haven't felt the need for a long prop.

Highroad, don't settle for a Maule! Just stick with a stock prop.

Oregon180 wrote:Dudes, my O470 with the stock prop speaks with a glorious Barry White baritone that makes the ladies go weak in the knees. Haven't felt the need for a long prop.

Highroad, don't settle for a Maule! Just stick with a stock prop.

HaHa! Ya, I should of clarified the long vs. short prop on the Cessna's.

I'm glad this is being talked about.

In the back country, 99% of folks are back there for peace and quiet. When I go back, it seems like 75% of the pilots are there to drive around the back country like an RV drives through a Yellowstone meadow. I spent a few summers full time on foot in the Frank Church back in the 80's. Even though I was obsessed with aviation as a teenager, and back country flying in particular, I had an equal appreciation for the values that everyone else back there had. Prop noise was not appreciated. Coming in as dead stick as possible to the larger strips, and departing at 2400 RPM after clearing the immediate terrain when possible is the very minimum courtesy I owe others who are enjoying a once-in-a-lifetime backpack trip with their family.

I wish my 182 made less noise. In my PA-22, I could arrive and leave and people would tell me they barely heard. When I hear the part 135 206's and 210's roll back to 23^2 as soon as the wheels leave the ground, I know they care as well, and that they know the impact of good customer relations as well. When I see a 185 do a chandelle at 630 in the morning right from takeoff and loiter at full power over the strip waiting for a buddy to follow them, I know they don't give a a dang. A Cub, Aeronca, T-Craft, or even the big Maules simply don't have the same problem at any power setting.

These incidents are front and center of public comments to close access to the remaining back country strips. As long as I've been enjoying the Idaho back country by air and foot over three decades or so, I see their points- and probably side with them more if I were to be honest. The truth is these conflicts are 80% avoidable with common courtesies:

#1: Everyone should remember that most of these strips were built in an era when climb rates on a good day might be closer to 100-200 fpm, with regular service by the likes of Travelairs, Jennies, Tiger Moths, and other types- not empty 182's and 210's and Maules. You simply don't need full power to depart many of the larger strips safely. People who fly back there to spend time there instead of bagging strips know this. I've had discussions about this with one of Bob Johnson's chief pilots form the 50's. Even fully loaded Tri Motors were pulled way back after they had 30-50 feet in the back country and elsewhere to save cylinders. Go easy on the RPM when you can (which is probably usually). It shows you know your stuff better than the sorry hack who insists on blaring out in an empty 206 at 630 am with no discernible reason.

#2: If you are going to bag strips with bigger iron, then don't get your hackles up when the rest of the co-owners of the back country (that would mean the rest of the public) want to shut down access for noise reasons. Some compromises that are being floated include recreational permits for specific landings at specific strips to reduce bagging, akin to the back country camping permits issued in National Parks. Others include a recreational aviation access lottery, much like rafting permits are now. If either of these sounds bad, I completely agree with you. But that is where things might head.

If even half the pilots operating bigger iron out of the areas in question followed basic guidelines for noise courtesy, it would make a large positive impact. I was fishing near Cabin Creek years ago when a familiar taxi 185 came in to pick up a few fishermen and their gear. I didn't hear it at all as it circled down once until it was on final. When it took off, fully laden at 3pm, it pulled back after clearing the south end until I could actually hear the exhaust noise behind the prop noise. It sounded like it was a couple miles away as it departed overhead compared to the 210 that departed several hours previously.

mountainmatt wrote:On the other hand, some of the best flying humor comes when Terry drinks.

Haha fore sure. There's something profound to be found at the bottom of a beer.

Good points, lesuther. Food for thought.

Lesuther,

I get your point about reducing rpm. I don't know if you're serious about commercial operators of 210/206s reducing power to 23 squared as soon as the wheels leave the ground. That's between 50-60% power for a 520, depending on the model, and would make for one sucky climb-out. I haven't seen/heard anyone doing that, and I wouldn't want my family riding with anyone who did. On the IO520F, I reduce from 2850 to 2700 at a couple hundred feet agl, which takes the prop tips below transsonic speed, then back to 2550 at 1,000' agl, which gives me a fighting chance at a 180 return to the strip in case the engine takes a holiday. Altitude = options. Even then, sometimes it's not enough. http://www.planecrashmap.com/plane/id/N206RA.

Sure, airplanes perform better now than they did when the strips were made. I'll take every advantage I can get. There's a continuum between making a partial power takeoff and making extra racket long after you have enough altitude to handle an emergency. For me in my plane, the tipping point is 1,000 agl or wherever I can get to a safe landing zone dead stick. The noise abatement fliers I get at various airports all have a reminder that flight safety takes precedence over noise abatement procedures. I don't see why it should be any different in wilderness that allows airplanes. YMMV.

CAVU

Zane wrote:

mountainmatt wrote:On the other hand, some of the best flying humor comes when Terry drinks.

Haha fore sure. There's something profound to be found at the bottom of a beer.

Long props, big tires and beer........some would say they are penis extensions.
Wishing I had the big tires.

CAVU wrote:Lesuther,

I get your point about reducing rpm. I don't know if you're serious about commercial operators of 210/206s reducing power to 23 squared as soon as the wheels leave the ground.

CAVU

Some of my first ever logged dual instruction I ever received was in the Big Creek drainage where I worked in the summer from a 135 pilot who had a CFI. In 206's and 185's, oddly enough. SOP was as soon as the wheels got quiet and we were at Vy (usually no real need for Vx) the engine went to the top of the greens, then to 23^2 within a minute. We didn't climb quite as fast, and didn't need to- he simply never needed maximum performance in most situations. He spent 5-6 hours a day behind a spinning prop in the Idaho back country, every day, for several years, going everywhere, and he made flying into Mile Hi in a 206 feel as routine as flying into Chamberlain. So yes. I am serious about it. Dragging 4 souls, 60 gallons, 4 large propane tanks, and gear out of Cabin Creek is not the scenario I'm talking about for reduced power settings- that takes serious noise to pull off. But most of us drag ourselves, our significant others if we are so fortunate, a couple of fishing poles, a nice lunch, and a modest amount of fuel if we are sneaking in from Hamilton or McCall for the day.

If I'm flying heavy and need max performance, I am happy to use it. Most of the time, I don't need it, and I don't use it. An engine problem coming out of Soldier Bar has the same outcome whether or not I have 500' agl instead of 600' agl. Bad.

mountainmatt wrote:On the other hand, some of the best flying humor comes when Terry drinks.

Terry drinks? I never imagined.

I wish the Sierra Club, and all the like minded organizations would just go straight to hell.

People like me who turn gasoline into noise for my own entertainment have just as much right to use public land as anyone else. I know I am out voted and I know full well our days in the Church are numbered.

The tree hugger hikers want us out and it will happen.

I love to bag different strips as most at Johnson Creek do. I know because I see them doing it. I don't have the time to go to Mile High and camp for days.

I guess some things are worth fighting for. I feel back country aviators or any American can do what George Washington and other men did when they didn't like the rules.

When Obama doesn't like, lets say Muammar Gaddafi. What does he do? Lob some bombs at him. Bare in mind Gaddafi didn't take anything from Obama. So if back country aviators don't like air strips being taken, they could act just like the current President.

The federal and state land is referred to as public land. Airplanes do not harm the land. Maybe the feds should make a law that lighting can't start fires. How about a law that rivers can't flood and erode the banks. Volcano's should be banned. Hurricane's, earth quakes. Talk about land damage.

Rant over

Oregon 180,
Highroad, don't settle for a Maule! Just stick with a stock prop.

I know a 300 foot ridgeline on the lower Salmon that I would never land a 180 on, however a "Super Maule" does quite nicely and doesn't scare all the mule deer out of the county. Sorry to hear about your unusually small male genitalia Terry.

James
Lewiston Native

23^2 as soon as the wheels leave the ground

top of the greens, then to 23^2 within a minute

Top of the green should get a lightly-loaded 185/206/210 well over 500' agl in a minute. I'd rather get to 1,000 as soon as possible, but backing the prop down to 2,700 kills the worst of the noise and seems like a reasonable compromise. I guess I don't trust the engine as much as your mentor did, since my old engine tanked on me a couple of years ago and the stains on the seat are still visible. I'm glad things worked out ok for him.

CAVU

Great, I buy a 180 and I'm a criminal before I even get it home. Hope I get a year or two to wring it out in the hills before the Sierra club shuts it all down

This is getting good. I have my popcorn in hand for sideline viewing. Always love the Maule vs 180 banter!

Super-Maule wrote:Dear Cessna 180 & 185 Pilots,

First of all, I think Cessna 180 & 185s are great airplanes. That said they can be obnoxiously noisy on takeoff if the propeller RPM isn't reduced shortly after takeoff. It's kind of a Harley Davidson thing for some Skywagon pilots "look at me".

Maybe someday with practice you too will obtain the superior piloting skill, catlike reflexes, and good looks in order to fly a Maule.

Little Cub is right on the money FLY NEIGHBORLY or you will loose access to some backcountry airstrips for everyone.

James

HEy James,,, WTF,, both my wife and I have Harleys.. and I of course drive the M4 210 C you see in the upper right hand corner of this post...... what were you inferring about Harley drivers.....I take mild offense.....

[quote][Saw this 180 take off the other day and got to wondering why Cessna makes better noise than a Maule?
Only thing I can figure,
#1...Cessna's have bigger balls.
#2...Continentals are superior.
Oh hell, burp.......I better go to bed. LOL

/quote]

Wow!

Guys stop this thread as there is no good to come from a statement like above. Why would any good person say something like this while drunk and not apoligize when sober. I have a helicopter and a Maule and wouldn't mind any other aircraft as well. The Maule is an outstanding airplane, as is any Cessna and we all love our planes.

If a drunk man speaks a sober mans mind, think about the nasty person who originated this thread and find it is better to let this thread pass. Then again, Zane could always take the high ground and remove it due to the ignorance involved.

Terry, I never met you, but if you are now sober it sure is a good time to apoligize to all those who you offended.

Take care all and hope to see many at Oskosh,
Tom

I don't know about others, but my C-180 sounds kinda good.

http://www.vimeo.com/1837272

TomKatz wrote:Wow! :sock:

Guys stop this thread as there is no good to come from a statement like above. Why would any good person say something like this while drunk and not apoligize when sober. I have a helicopter and a Maule and wouldn't mind any other aircraft as well. The Maule is an outstanding airplane, as is any Cessna and we all love our planes.

If a drunk man speaks a sober mans mind, think about the nasty person who originated this thread and find it is better to let this thread pass. Then again, Zane could always take the high ground and remove it due to the ignorance involved.

Terry, I never met you, but if you are now sober it sure is a good time to apoligize to all those who you offended.

Take care all and hope to see many at Oskosh,
Tom

Terry is a nice, friendly guy, and it appears to me that this was made purely in a lighthearted sense, tongue-in-cheek if you will. Perhaps the joke is lost in word, but I laughed.

Why would I remove this? If you're offended by someone on the Internet saying their airplane type is better than yours, then your flying forum career is going to be a rough one. Perhaps you're joking now with your tongue in cheek, and I'm the one taking it too seriously? I think most of us here understand that there is run-what-you-brung mentality in effect at BCP, but appropriate trash-talking is part of the fun.

I think the one you should scolding here is OregonMaule. He's trying to take this in a direction no one else wants to go...

My personal high ground is a much more complicated region of the graph where opinion, courtesy, humor, and respect intersect.

Any pussy can fly a taildragger into a backcountry strip. It takes (burp) cajones to fly an underpowered 172 into one!

Time for another beer!

Oh, right, back on topic... we're talkin 'bout noise here. Yeah, I like the sound of a long prop but most people don't in the back country. I can understand too, I don't care for 2 stroke snowmobiles when I'm out hiking about, but don't mind the muffled 4 strokes. Like blaring music, loud pipes and props sound much better to the aficionados than to those around them.

Terry is a great guy. We are just funning each other. There are some good points too. Something to think about. Z man, you can scold me all you want, I am used to it. You a member of the Sierra Club?

Cheers...Rob

well no matter what you do there is bound to be SOMEONE who doesn't like it..... couple years ago a few of us who brought our guns to JC went down to the North end of the strip in the brush area far away from anyone and set up a few targets... sure enough a couple of folks at JC later complained about the shot noise... immagine that,,, complaining about gun shot noise in Idaho.... and Oh yeah we did ask if it was ok to do so and it is....so how's this for a new direction Zane