A fully dressed IO-360ES, used on the Cirrus SR 20, weighs 370lbs. I'll find the link to where I read that weight.

EDIT: So maybe not fully dressed but with all accessories: The IO-360-ES engines have a 360 cubic inch displacement achieved by
using a cylinder design with a 4.438 inch diameter bore and a 3.875 inch
stroke. The dry weight of the engine is 305.0 lbs. without accessories. The
weight of the engine with installed accessories is approximately 370 lbs.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CC8QFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tcmlink.com%2Fengspecsheetdocs%2Fio360es.pdf&ei=-zd2VMn8MsfooASJuILQCA&usg=AFQjCNENzqzX1fin1BFv82WpmYOBtOGrVA&sig2=wZn8d_4e3xceZBKQTvXlkQ&bvm=bv.80642063,d.cGU

I haven't found it but I read a couple forums where guys switched from 4-cylinder Lycomings to the TCM IO-360 one their Swifts and gained something like 80lbs. That about the increase I'm looking for to help with CG.

Zzz wrote:260hp with just me and the little lady sounds like something I'm interested in.

Honestly, you will love it

I took a flight with empty tanks and just me on Sunday, the climb performance still knocks my socks off. I started rolling 600m (1800ft) from the tower, I was climbing through 1000ft AGL as I past the tower

whee wrote:However, I have put a deposit down on a project Bearhawk and plan to go pick it up just after Christmas. Thus my sudden flood of questions.

Yeeah! Glad to hear you're getting back into a BH!

Thanks Battson!

When I went for a ride with Blackrock a few years ago I couldn't believe the performance. He pushed the throttle in as you would on any departure and we were in the air before he had it all the way in. He wasn't even trying for max performance. While I would thoroughly enjoy that kind of performance I need to be realistic about what I can afford to buy and fly. I could probably find a affordable O-540 engine but I don't think I could afford to fly it. The IO-360 is one of the most fuel efficient engines available for aircraft and that is important to me. 180hp was sufficient for my needs so I imagine 210hp will be awesome.

Think MoGas too.

Whee, Av8r3400 has it 100% correct.
If you haven't already, please join the EAA. There are people that work there that will gladly answer your questions with a greater chance you will recieve the correct answer. I recently purchased another plane (EAB) and was undecided on whether or not I would be able to finish the plane myself and then able to get the repairmans certificate. A simple call to EAA and my concerns were answered immediately.

WWhunter wrote:If you haven't already, please join the EAA. There are people that work there that will gladly answer your questions with a greater chance you will recieve the correct answer.

You are right, I need to join. A couple days ago I looked at joining but for $40 for a national membership and $30 to joint the local chapter I decided not to. I've learned a lot just from the webinars and for that I should pay the $40. I didn't even think about the ability to call up the national folks when I have questions.

whee wrote:.......I need to be realistic about what I can afford to buy and fly. I could probably find a affordable O-540 engine but I don't think I could afford to fly it. The IO-360 is one of the most fuel efficient engines available for aircraft and that is important to me....

Just how much less expensive to you think the IO360 will be to operate vs the O or IO540? I'd guess a couple of gallons a hour lower fuel burn-- even with $6/gallon avgas that's only 12 or 15 bucks an hour. 1200 to 1500 bucks a year if you fly 100 hours. While it kinda sounds like a lot, that's probably pretty minor when looking at the total costs. I'd guess parts & stuff will be more available for the 540 if and when something needs replacing. Personally I'd suggest taking another look at Cont 470's: 230 hp and 12 gph burn average at moderate cruise power settings. And lots of engines available on the used market, from uys upgrading to Ponk 520's.

Really the main thing I am looking at is keeping fuel burn under 10gph at cruise power. Can't do that with a O-470 or O-540. That being said a lesson I learned when flying the 180hp Bearhawk; while cruising at whatever setting it was to get me 125mph Blackrock could fly the same speed with almost the exact same fuel burn. Good thing choosing an engine is a ways off.

whee wrote:Really the main thing I am looking at is keeping fuel burn under 10gph at cruise power. Can't do that with a O-470 or O-540. That being said a lesson I learned when flying the 180hp Bearhawk; while cruising at whatever setting it was to get me 125mph Blackrock could fly the same speed with almost the exact same fuel burn. Good thing choosing an engine is a ways off.

That actually makes a lot of sense... For a nearly identical airplane, the power setting is what's going to drive cruise speed, which is proportional to fuel burn unless you're running stupid rich. Our unless you get way outside a efficiency range on one of the engines you're comparing.

I like your TCM IO-360 idea, but that's easy for me to say with no money in the decision

whee wrote:Really the main thing I am looking at is keeping fuel burn under 10gph at cruise power. Can't do that with a O-470 or O-540. That being said a lesson I learned when flying the 180hp Bearhawk; while cruising at whatever setting it was to get me 125mph Blackrock could fly the same speed with almost the exact same fuel burn. Good thing choosing an engine is a ways off.

Whee - I can probably count on one hand, the number of cruise hours I've flown my IO-540 above 10gph. I bet you could get an O- to run LOP too, the Lycoming isn't as tricky as the TCM.
LOP I can select anywhere from 7.5 - 10 gph depending on how much speed I want, 9.5 gph is my favourite, as I see the best mix of speed and fuel burn.
But I get that you like the look of the 4 cyl engines better - just saying - the big ones don't have to be that thirsty.
Of course purchase cost, maintenance cost, overhaul cost, etc etc

whee wrote:Really the main thing I am looking at is keeping fuel burn under 10gph at cruise power. Can't do that with a O-470 or O-540. That being said a lesson I learned when flying the 180hp Bearhawk; while cruising at whatever setting it was to get me 125mph Blackrock could fly the same speed with almost the exact same fuel burn. Good thing choosing an engine is a ways off.

I am curious why you say you can't run at cruise under 10GPH on an 0-470? In my 180, running at 23 sq I burn 11-11.5GPH at 140mph. I'm sure if I was happy at 130 mph it would be 10 or less. I've never tried it.

Battson wrote:LOP I can select anywhere from 7.5 - 10 gph depending on how much speed I want, 9.5 gph is my favourite, as I see the best mix of speed and fuel burn.

So what's you speed at 9.5gph?

I'm enjoying this conversation and will add more a little later when I have some time.

At sea level that buys me between 108 and 112 KIAS (130 mph) depending on the day. That's an honest / conservative speed with the VGs, 26" tires, and other draggy additions included.

At higher altitude, I normally expect to see more like 120 KTAS (138 mph) or more. Above 7 grand I up it to about 10 gal/h and run at peak for 125 KTAS.

Thanks Battson. Those number sound really good.

A1Skinner wrote:I am curious why you say you can't run at cruise under 10GPH on an 0-470? In my 180, running at 23 sq I burn 11-11.5GPH at 140mph. I'm sure if I was happy at 130 mph it would be 10 or less. I've never tried it.

It isn't that you can't but maybe that might not be the best thing for your engine to always be running around in loiter mode. Lots of things are affecting my engine choice; I think the O540 or O470 is a bit too heavy, the O360 is a bit too light, the TCM IO-360 is pretty good middle ground but the cylinders are expensive, I want to run a +84" McCauley propeller, to cruise at 130+mph, fuel burn less than 10gph, mogas capable and a few other things.The TCM IO-360 seems to fit what I want to do but that my change by the time I need to purchase an engine. I have a lot of decisions to make and I'm glad I don't have to make this one right now.

I also like that the TCM IO-360 is a 6 cylinder and that the air intake is on top of the engine. I like the look of no airbox on the bottom of the cowl.

Whee,

May I ask, what is your target for gross weight and service ceiling? What are your plans for a flight regime?

Just curious. Thanks!

8GCBC wrote:May I ask, what is your target for gross weight and service ceiling? What are your plans for a flight regime?

2500lbs gross (2700MTOW is an options but I'm not planning on going with it) and +14K service ceiling. Home airport is 4740msl and I plan to load her close to gross for camping trips with the family. Most locations will be around 4000msl and +2000' runways. Cruise altitude will typically be close to 10K.

Esp since the Bearhawk has always made me think "hmm, a home-built Maule with sticks!" (no offense), this discussion brings to mind the fact that Maule built a number of M4 & M5's with the IO-360 Continental. People that have them seem to love them. I don't see anything wrong with wanting to use one on a BH, except that it's not a very common engine and therefore might be as well supported as the Lyc 360 & 540.
It also occurs to me that I read somewhere that Bob Barrows originally designed the Bearhawk around an 360 Lyc. I have to believe that he made some design choices when he did so that eliminated or at least reduced any aft-CG issues with that engine.

I'd happily buy a Maule it was avaliable EAB and with sticks:) and my thinking as along the same lines with the IO360 m4 and m5.

I've never asked Bob about the CG issues with a Lyc 360; I'll do that the next time I talk with him.

The high desert can have ridiculously high DA in the Summer. An IO360 @ 2500LBS may have trouble in certain weather above 10,000 DA in the Mountainous terrain.

I know my Scout @2150 LBS does. I never forget Steve Fossett in the Citabria.