http://www.krnv.com/Global/story.asp?S= ... v=8faOW3wk

Saw this on the news this morning. We had a small storm in the area last night, this guy must have been trying to make it home from CA. A snow groomer found part of the wreckage, including the chute. I wonder if he tried to pop it when he knew he couldn't maintain altitude with the icing.

So, question: How do you feel about recovery parachute systems? Would you install one if they were reasonably priced and there was a STC for your aircraft?

Personally, I have flown with BRS recovery chutes on ultralights for years, it's just a nice feeling to have the backup as an option should you need to make an emergency decent into harsh terrain where a landing is not possible.

Zane

http://www.rgj.com/news/stories/html/20 ... local_news

I think I heard on the radio his name was McGrath, from Novato, CA.


Chutes:
That a parachute recovery system would embolden a pilot has been an argument since the devices were introduced. It is definitely a concern. If invited to fly with someone whose aircraft is like something from Mad Max, but they have a chute, I will pass. Many ultralight pilots use it as a shortcut to skimp on pre-flight or routine maintenance, and that's the kind of guy I'd like to avoid.

I can't tell you how many people I've told about ultralights who, just when their look of skepticsm reaches climax and their eyebrow stretches down the back of their neck, the addition of the "recovery parachute" makes everything okay. As a pilot, I know it's a last ditch and I don't really think about it during normal operting procedures. The thing is useless below 300 ft AGL anyway(and that is an absolute minimum altitude.)

Overall, I think it's a good thing if I've done all I can to pilot the aircraft safely, and something uncontrollable happens that no pilot can overcome (control failure, structural failure, harsh terrain during engine failure.)

Z

I've had some non-pilots ask me if I wear a parachute when I fly, & express disbelief when I say no. I tell them the darn airplane cost too much to abandon mid-flight just cuz it's gonna crash, that usually shuts them up. Cuts down on the number of pesky requests for rides, too.

Eric

Ok, so you wouldn't jump from the plane. But how do you feel about integrated airframe recovery chutes, like the Cirrus is equipped with?

Z

Modern conveniences are nice. Simplicity has it's virtues. I still have a devout distrust of anti-lock brakes. I agree with Gunny, you still have to flare the chute so, in my mind, the chute is an uncontrolled, slow motion crash. Like John said, if there is a shred of control, pick your spot. It might not be great, but by God, I picked it! Maybe I'm something of a control freak.I don't know. It seems though that as long as the wings are on... "Fly the plane. Fly the plane. Fly the plane"!

A friend & I were talking about these BRS chutes, & we decided that maybe it's actually more dangerous to have one than not. It might tend to make a person feel sorta invincible: "oh, it's OK to fly into known icing-- after all, i've got the chute if anything goes wrong". Like what Zane said about ultralighters scrimping on their preflight or maintenance,when they have the chute for insurance.
I got chewed out for removing the vacuum system & gyro's from my 170: "what if you fly into a cloud?". Well, without gyro's, this VFR pilot won't try to fool himself into thinking he'd survive a VFR-into- IMC situation. Hell, even a lot of IFR-trained guys blow that one!

Eric

If flying over very harsh terrain, where a regular gliding landing is for sure going to result in carnage, I would definitely do my best to choose my target(a few acres?), approach stall, and pop that chute. Who would want to fly into harsh terrain at 45-50 kts when you can descend straight down at whatever the descent rate for these chutes is, prob more like 10 mph. I've heard stories of guys who put them(Cirrus) down out of IMC and didn't even know they had touched down.

Another story, speaking of pilot confidence or false confidence: Two pilots were out flying a new Cirrus, which is NOT rated for spins or spin recovery. They entered a spin and could not recover. Now enter the pilot/owner's sense of financial responsibility. He refused to pull the chute, which likely would have saved their lives, but he instead chose to fight the poorly designed aircraft all the way into the crater they made, probably because he couldn't fathom possibly destroying his $200K aircraft.... It's gonna happen either way, I say take the sure way out. I guess it's all about recognizing when you as a pilot cannot fly your way into a safe outcome.

Whoa, back up the truck-- how much of that last story is fact & how much is supposition? If they augered into a self-created crater, I have to assume they did not survive. Did the pilot tell ATC or some other reliable source that he refused to deploy the chute? Or are you just supposing that part? Maybe the chute itself refused to deploy? I've heard rumors of that happening with the Cirrus chutes, but they were just that- rumors.
"They entered a spin and could not recover". Was this an intentional spin? In an airplane that I assume is placarded against intentional spins? Usually an unintentional spin happened due to stalling in a slow, uncoordinated turn to final, or from severe airframe icing in-flight resulting in a stall. Maybe it was a "graveyard spiral" entered while in IMC. From what I understand, lotsa times the pilot can't even tell he's in the spiral cuz he's disoriented, his inner ear & his flight instruments don't agree and he can't tell which end's up. So maybe he didn't know he was in trouble, and didn't even try to recover let alone consider popping the chute.
We shouldn't be too quick to assume we *know* the facts. But we can speculate all we want, let's just don't assume that our theories are necesarily true.
No offense

Eric

Zero,

The story WAS related to me second hand, and I will look for the story on the web. Even if this was a completely hypothetical situation, the result is the same.

Frankly, I would not want a Cirrus because of the spin characteristics. I would rather have a parachuteless C170 that I know I can recover. All too often though, an unintentional spin happens at the worst possible time(approach..base to final) with no chance of being saved by a chute. Perhaps these guys were doing maneuvers and stall recovery training... it is not that hard to spin from a full stall if you have one heavy foot. If they were at a safe practice altitude, say 3500 AGL, doing stall recovery practice, it would be difficult to make yourself pull that chute instead of trying to recover from the spin, knowing you had ample altitude.

Z

Cirrus can throw in all the parachutes & fancy stuff they want, including stewardesses, but they can keep their newfangled plastic Billy Whizbang airplane no thanks. Just give me good old aluminum or tube & fabric any day!
Well, on second thought, I might take their stewardess..........

Eric

hahahaha. let's play "who's the more grizzled pilot?"

Funny, my Google ad bar is now coming up with ads for BRS ballistic parachutes. They comb the site for keywords and pull up appropriate ads... funny.

Z

The guy who attempted to use the BRS, found it did not work, and landed safely anyway is a perfect example on how these planes are misused.

Not the plane's fault of course, but the anti-ice and the BRS give these pilots a little too much false courage.

Found this article about a Cirrus where the chute saved four lives. Sure he flew into ice in a non-certified heavily loaded airplane, but this happens all the time, and in most cases we read about the victims rather than the survivors. If think a BRS is a great idea. I know I would sure like to have that option when the shit hits the fan.

DEGJR

TALLADEGA COUNTY

4 survive plane crash
By Richard McVay
01-14-2006

CHILDERSBURG — Four people were uninjured when the airplane they were flying in crashed in a wooded area outside Childersburg Friday afternoon.
The Childersburg Fire Department responded to the crash, which occurred about 4 p.m. Friday near Flagpole Mountain.

Officials at the Fire Department would not comment, but referred inquiries to the National Transportation Safety Board, who is investigating the accident.

Corky Smith, senior safety investigator with the NTSB, said the airplane, a Cirrus SR22, was owned by Trent Shoring Systems Inc., based out of Fulton County, Ga. The plane departed Birmingham International Airport about 3 p.m. Friday on a business flight to Orlando, Fla. The pilot and three passengers were aboard the aircraft, Smith said.

According to Smith, the pilot filed an IFR flight report and obtained DUATS weather briefing before departing Birmingham. The aircraft entered the clouds at an altitude of 5,000 feet, and at 7,000 feet began taking ice. The pilot then informed an air traffic controller, who cleared the aircraft when it reached 9,000 feet. The aircraft began coming out of the clouds at 8,000 feet and began buffeting, or experiencing a change in pitching movement, and spinning to the left.

The pilot then reduced power and applied an opposite rudder, but the aircraft did not respond. He informed air traffic control before pulling the plane’s ballistic parachute.

The aircraft came to rest in trees near Flagpole Mountain, Smith said, and the pilot and passengers exited the plane uninjured, walked up a hill, and contacted 911 operators. Childersburg Fire Department responded to the call, and the pilot and passengers were transported to Childersburg Fire Department.

Officials with the NTSB and the Federal Aviation Administration will return to the crash site today, according to Jimmy Kilgore, chief deputy with the Talladega County Sheriff’s Department.

No further information was available at press time.

I was pretty proud of my Maule after I installed VGs. I could bring the nose up into a power off stall and descend @ 700 fpm and zero airspeed. I asked a Cirrus rep how fast his aircraft descended on the BRC and he quoted me 1100 fpm! I somehow think I would be in better shape than the Cirrus owner simply because I can start flying again if the view out the window says I should. Insurance companies are retooling their loss tables to add a surcharge for the BRC because it increases the chance of a total hull loss.

I just got a ride in a Cirrus over the weekend and while talking with the owner briefly discussed the BRS. Out of curiousity we looked up the advertised descent rate under the chute, which is 14 mph. I'm not a math major so someone QA this for me, but I show that as 1400fpm.

Vick,

Double checked your numbers...I come up with 14 mph = 1,232 ft/min. Do you know if the 14 mph is directly vertical, or is there a horizontal component also? I did a little math, and if the Cirrus is traveling at 14 mph down a "glide slope", and if it had a forward velocity of a little over 8 mph, it's vertical velocity would be 1,000 fpm (not to be splitting hairs). I don't remember exactly, but it seems like when I did a static line parachute jump years ago in a millitary style round chute, it had a velocity of about 15 to 18 mph. Still knocked the wind out of me, and clicked my teeth together.

DEGJR