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Composite Voyager Finally Ready

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Re: Composite Voyager Finally Ready

hotrod180 wrote:Curious as to relative costs...
2-blade MT vs 3-blade MT vs composite Voyager


Why not compare a Volkswagen to a pineapple? That's be just as relevant. LOL

The 2B is in a different camp. The 3B MT vs the metal Voyager is apples and oranges. There is no question that the metal Voyager outperforms the 3B MT; but its heavier... the weight savings with the MT along with its smoothness is the value proposition for the MT. It also spools incredibly fast and is fun to fly behind, not to mention that cool sound.

With the new composite Hartz, the question is what is the weight/performance/price difference between the two 3B composites? But more importantly, how the Voyager is going to work with starter adapters.

From where I sit, the important questions for the new Hartzell are: 1) is there less risk of getting stuck with a broken adapter 2) is the performance better 3) if yes, than is the juice worth the squeeze?

Before any composites were in my mind, there was no doubt that the 401 Black Mac was king... but it was too heavy for my 180, so I put on an MT around a decade ago. I was flying a 2B MT, then went with a 3B MT. That juice was not worth the squeeze, so I went back to the 2B. I loved that prop, but saw too many adapters breaking despite the remedies that have been discussed... so I decided that the metal Voyager would be the prop for me... but with that prop, the CG is right up against it as it was with the 401, so what to do?

This is obvious... but I'm excited with the composite Voyager because I can take advantage of the lightness while having the performance of the Voyager blade... it will get the CG back closer to where I want it to be, and the Wagon "should" fly more like the engineers originally designed it to do. This is the most important to me.

Would I like the better performance of the metal Voyager if it is indeed better, with the added bonus of being $10k less?? Absolutely. But... in my case, with a heavily modified and gutted "utility" style wagon, my particular CG will benefit more from getting the airplane back where it should be. On paper, it's looking like that for me, the juice "will" be worth the squeeze, with one caveat: Along with selling MT's, I am a Hartzell dealer, and did not pay retail for the prop. I'm under no obligation to have an opinion either way, but this definitely makes running any of these props an easier decision to make.

All this said, this is just conjecture at this point, and just 0.2 from a guy who has too many opinions and can be, from time to time, susceptible to hyperbole. I should have my composite here in 6 weeks... Right now its the cobblers kids... I've a new engine to get sorted, a MK11 panel finished, and the bird back up in the air... but God willing and the creek don'r rise, I should have something substantive to contribute sooner rather than later instead of waxing poetic on anecdotal theory. #-o
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Re: Composite Voyager Finally Ready

Bigrenna wrote:...
Why not compare a Volkswagen to a pineapple? That's be just as relevant. LOL
The 2B is in a different camp. The 3B MT vs the metal Voyager is apples and oranges....
Before any composites were in my mind, there was no doubt that the 401 Black Mac was king... but it was too heavy for my 180, so I put on an MT around a decade ago. I was flying a 2B MT, then went with a 3B MT. That juice was not worth the squeeze, so I went back to the 2B. ...


I disagree with your VW vs pineapple comparison.
All five of the props I asked about are still viable choices for a lot of people running 520's & 550's--
in fact, some people still run or want to run an old C66 2 blade with a ponk engine.
IMHO performance & cost are both part of the selection equation-- in your words, the juice & the squeeze.
Last edited by hotrod180 on Fri Dec 20, 2024 10:04 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Composite Voyager Finally Ready

hotrod180 wrote:Your own post shows...
That’s not what I was saying Hotdog.
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Re: Composite Voyager Finally Ready

I’ll be updating with data soon

JC
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Re: Composite Voyager Finally Ready

Here we go:

I'll try to be succinct and to the point. I'm not a Hartzell employee but I am friends with the former owners full discloser. I'll be putting the first production CV on my plane in a month. I flew 80 of 90 hours of test flying in my 185 with both an IO-520 and IO-550. All testing was normalized to standard day. All flights were at specific CG and GW to be consistent. Hartzell runs a very analytical test program. We tested 7 different prop/airfoils etc. I'd say if one goes out and does their own testing that data may or may not be consistent due to environmental/weight and balance/CG differences etc. My point being Hartzell does everything possible to attain accurate and attributable data. Your mileage may vary.

2BL vs. 3BL- Hartzell did not pursue a 2 BL composite as there was no way to honor Continentals minimum inertia requirements to prevent kickback on start. I have no idea how many starts I did but I'd say 70 plus. I never had one kickback during any test. I have the large Energizer starter if you are wondering.

The 86" Carbon Voyager (spinner and backplate) is 14.1 lbs lighter than the Aluminum Voyager.

Data:

Cessna A185F (similarity to 180 and 185)
Takeoff Performance
Carbon Voyager vs Voyager.......................................................................... 4% shorter
Carbon Voyager vs F8468A-6R...................................................................... 2% shorter
Carbon Voyager vs Trailblazer..................................................................... 12% shorter
Carbon Voyager vs MTV-9-D/210-58........................................................... 20% shorter

Climb Performance
Carbon Voyager vs Voyager........................................................................ 3% increase
Carbon Voyager vs F8468A-6R............................................................................ Similar
Carbon Voyager vs Trailblazer................................................................... 10% increase
Carbon Voyager vs MTV-9-D/210-58.......................................................... 19% increase

Cruise Performance
Carbon Voyager vs Voyager................................................................................ Similar
Carbon Voyager vs F8468A-6R............................................................................ Similar
Carbon Voyager vs Trailblazer............................................................................. Similar


Cessna U206F (similarity to 182)
Takeoff Performance
Carbon Voyager vs F8468A-6R............................................................................ Similar
Climb Performance
Carbon Voyager vs F8468A-6R.................................................................... 4% increase
Cruise Performance
Carbon Voyager vs F8468A-6R............................................................................ Similar

My impression:

The CV is a great product. It will wear well as there will be little erosion with the Nickel leading edge. One will have to decide if it's right for them. I'm putting one on mine to replace my Aluminum Voyager. It is exceptionally smooth on the engine.

In my experience both the CV and AL Voyagers are much faster than the MT. My 520 with MT never cruised faster than 138KTAS. Once I put the AL Voyager on the plane I routinely saw 145-146 KTAS in cruise. I now have a 550 and see 155 KTAS all the time both in my 185 and other 185's with same combination.

I'm happy to answer questions. I'm not an engineer. I'll do my best to get data to you. I appreciate any interest. I plan to have my 185 on display at OSH this next summer.

Regards

JC
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Re: Composite Voyager Finally Ready

Excellent information. I'm a little concerned about CG, would you happen to know the weight difference between the two versions of the Voyager and the D3A34C402? I'm not entirely sure, but it looks like my prop weights 77lbs. I'd like to run some W&B simulations.

I'm not necessarily obsessed with weight savings, but I plan to add a few airframe mods and I would like to offset the additional weight with a lighter prop and perhaps a lighter battery.
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Re: Composite Voyager Finally Ready

CP,

The 86" CV is I believe 14.1 lbs lighter than the Aluminum Voyager. Double check on the Hartzell website to make sure.

Thanks for asking.

JC
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Re: Composite Voyager Finally Ready

185Midwest wrote:Here we go:

I'll try to be succinct and to the point. I'm not a Hartzell employee but I am friends with the former owners full discloser. I'll be putting the first production CV on my plane in a month. I flew 80 of 90 hours of test flying in my 185 with both an IO-520 and IO-550. All testing was normalized to standard day. All flights were at specific CG and GW to be consistent. Hartzell runs a very analytical test program. We tested 7 different prop/airfoils etc. I'd say if one goes out and does their own testing that data may or may not be consistent due to environmental/weight and balance/CG differences etc. My point being Hartzell does everything possible to attain accurate and attributable data. Your mileage may vary.

2BL vs. 3BL- Hartzell did not pursue a 2 BL composite as there was no way to honor Continentals minimum inertia requirements to prevent kickback on start. I have no idea how many starts I did but I'd say 70 plus. I never had one kickback during any test. I have the large Energizer starter if you are wondering.

The 86" Carbon Voyager (spinner and backplate) is 14.1 lbs lighter than the Aluminum Voyager.

Data:

Cessna A185F (similarity to 180 and 185)
Takeoff Performance
Carbon Voyager vs Voyager.......................................................................... 4% shorter
Carbon Voyager vs F8468A-6R...................................................................... 2% shorter
Carbon Voyager vs Trailblazer..................................................................... 12% shorter
Carbon Voyager vs MTV-9-D/210-58........................................................... 20% shorter

Climb Performance
Carbon Voyager vs Voyager........................................................................ 3% increase
Carbon Voyager vs F8468A-6R............................................................................ Similar
Carbon Voyager vs Trailblazer................................................................... 10% increase
Carbon Voyager vs MTV-9-D/210-58.......................................................... 19% increase

Cruise Performance
Carbon Voyager vs Voyager................................................................................ Similar
Carbon Voyager vs F8468A-6R............................................................................ Similar
Carbon Voyager vs Trailblazer............................................................................. Similar


Cessna U206F (similarity to 182)
Takeoff Performance
Carbon Voyager vs F8468A-6R............................................................................ Similar
Climb Performance
Carbon Voyager vs F8468A-6R.................................................................... 4% increase
Cruise Performance
Carbon Voyager vs F8468A-6R............................................................................ Similar

My impression:

The CV is a great product. It will wear well as there will be little erosion with the Nickel leading edge. One will have to decide if it's right for them. I'm putting one on mine to replace my Aluminum Voyager. It is exceptionally smooth on the engine.

In my experience both the CV and AL Voyagers are much faster than the MT. My 520 with MT never cruised faster than 138KTAS. Once I put the AL Voyager on the plane I routinely saw 145-146 KTAS in cruise. I now have a 550 and see 155 KTAS all the time both in my 185 and other 185's with same combination.

I'm happy to answer questions. I'm not an engineer. I'll do my best to get data to you. I appreciate any interest. I plan to have my 185 on display at OSH this next summer.

Regards

JC


Thanks for posting your numbers. This is phenomenal. Also with the prop only weighing 14 lbs less - along with weighted tips - I believe a lot less likely for starter adapter failures. It seems the performance metrics are equal or better to the aluminum voyager. Only downside - the cost. 14 lbs on the nose could be worth it for me.


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Re: Composite Voyager Finally Ready

Im very surprised the 8468 did as well as it did. Seems like the metal Voyager is no better than the 8468 and other than weight savings the composite is only a little better. Am I reading this right? I had an 8468 on my 550 powered 185 and found it to be a nice good performing smooth quiet prop. These numbers are interesting. Thanks for posting JC!

Kurt

PS what is the price of an 8468 these days?
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Re: Composite Voyager Finally Ready

Kurt,

I'm not sure what that prop goes for these days you would have to contact HP for that answer. The Voyager does out perform the 8468 by a little bit. The 8468 is a great airfoil bug the Voyager is incrementally better by a bit.

I'm excited about the CV. As Josh state previously its really good but not cheap. I'm looking at the durability in the long run. Having spent as much time as I have in the Hartzell facility I've seen numerous Carbon props come in from turbo props that spin in much harsher conditions with very little erosion.

LMK if I can help.

JC
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Re: Composite Voyager Finally Ready

To me reading that pile of comparative data, I would be led to believe that the 8468 is superior to the metal voyager in takeoff performance and equal to it in climb and cruise. And that other than a 2% improvement in takeoff performance, which for a 185 is in the 8-12 foot range - assuming a 400-600ft takeoff roll, has the same performance as the composite voyager.

All is can say is wow, the most modern rip snorting prop out there is really within measurable error of being the same as the old paddle blade design.

Are we at the peak of propeller design? Where the existing offerings are so good there really isn't improvement left to chase?
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Re: Composite Voyager Finally Ready

What’s the take off roll distance/cruise/climb difference from this new carbon prop vs the OE 185 3 blade?
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Re: Composite Voyager Finally Ready

185Midwest wrote:Kurt,

I'm not sure what that prop goes for these days you would have to contact HP for that answer. The Voyager does out perform the 8468 by a little bit. The 8468 is a great airfoil bug the Voyager is incrementally better by a bit.

I'm excited about the CV. As Josh state previously its really good but not cheap. I'm looking at the durability in the long run. Having spent as much time as I have in the Hartzell facility I've seen numerous Carbon props come in from turbo props that spin in much harsher conditions with very little erosion.

LMK if I can help.

JC


I’d also wonder the conditions the turbo props are flying in vs piston


I used to get a bit of shock and awe at FSI when other PC12 guys found out we landed on grass

Same with the 208 and landing floats

Seems most kerosine guys are flying off jet level runways
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Re: Composite Voyager Finally Ready

Kilo,

Don't know the answer to your question.

Many Caravans and Kodiaks are running Carbon props and take them into pretty harsh environments with no issues.

JC
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Re: Composite Voyager Finally Ready

Is the 8468 also known as the top prop? That's crazy that the numbers on it as so good. It's a shame you don't have comparison numbers ti the black mac.
CParker, make sure you run the numbers first. In my 206 I like the heavy prop up front. Anything you load is pretty far after, especially with an extended baggage.
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Re: Composite Voyager Finally Ready

I am also surprised the old Hartzell 8468 is basically equivalent to the aluminum Voyager. As in, why even come up with the Voyager if it doesn't beat the old design?

I will be getting an 86" Aluminum Voyager soon and will try to get some numbers same airplane same day against my current 86" Black Mac 401.

Takeoff distance will be difficult to gauge since it is tough to replicate the exact technique and exact winds. But a significant difference in climb rate and cruise speed should be apparent.
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Re: Composite Voyager Finally Ready

I am surprised the MT is 18% worse than the 8468? That is a huge amount and doesn’t seem to be what is reported by those who have changed to the MT? Those that have changed from the MT to the Voyager have claimed a definite improvement, but maybe not 20%. Like others have said, why build a prop that is no better (within the margin of error) than the old model? I assume the numbers don't lie but very surprising none the less.
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Re: Composite Voyager Finally Ready

i guess MT disagree. But maybe they would.
https://media.mcfarlaneaviation.com/doc ... esults.pdf
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Re: Composite Voyager Finally Ready

JamieG wrote:I am surprised the MT is 18% worse than the 8468? That is a huge amount and doesn’t seem to be what is reported by those who have changed to the MT? Those that have changed from the MT to the Voyager have claimed a definite improvement,...


In my experience, very few people who spend big bucks for an "upgrade" want to admit, even to themselves, that it wasn't the game-changer that they hoped it would be-- esp when it's $15 to 20K worth of upgrade.
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Re: Composite Voyager Finally Ready

I believe the CF is about weight savings, and that the CF is just a bit more than 12 lbs lighter than the F8468A-6R, which is a significant improvement for those that are worried about CG. Im not sure how folks who "spend the big bucks" wont find the weight savings doing exactly what they want it to do?
Last edited by Bigrenna on Sat Dec 28, 2024 4:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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