I know I am getting old and senile. I also know that I have called the maneuver Google now calls "coordination rolls" Dutch Rolls for years and pilots all around the country have understood what I was talking about. I believe it is a Pinko Commie Plot or artificial intelligence trying to take over. I think ATPs have stolen our time honored word for keeping the nose on target while starting turns in each direction repeatedly. We were practicing Dutch Rolls before there were any swept wing aircraft or an internet. Ken Hoffman at Ken'sAir at JeffCo in Denver called the maneuver Dutch Rolls in 1963.

Dutch rolls-- learned them in aerobatics class in 2004. I've never heard "coordination rolls" though to be honest it is a much better term.

Jim, of all people, YOU'RE getting worked up by creative reworking of the aviation lexicon? [emoji41]

Basic flight dynamics (including [3] axis instabilities) are addressed here:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_roll

I do not see the word "coordinated" in any Google search?

Further reading:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phugoid
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Short_period#Longitudinal_modes

Google results.

Zzz wrote:Dutch rolls-- learned them in aerobatics class in 2004. I've never heard "coordination rolls" though to be honest it is a much better term.

Jim, of all people, YOU'RE getting worked up by creative reworking of the aviation lexicon? [emoji41]

Never understood what made it "Dutch." I kind of always thought it must be something politically incorrect about how people from the Netherlands cross control at altitude. Doesn't seem like very much of an insult now that I think about it. Besides, we all learned from Goldmember that no one can truly dislike the Dutch.

Zane, serious question. What's the thought about introducing them in aerobatics? Was it part of a progression or just warm up skills? I learned them in primary, but it was billed strictly as a "how to keep the tail behind you on landing" kind of thing. I still do them every flight to wake up my feet.

Bill

fiftynineSC wrote:Zane, serious question. What's the thought about introducing them in aerobatics? Was it part of a progression or just warm up skills? I learned them in primary, but it was billed strictly as a "how to keep the tail behind you on landing" kind of thing. I still do them every flight to wake up my feet.

Bill

It could be because my "aerobatics" course was a combination tailwheel, emergency maneuvers, spin training, and basic aerobatics in a Super Cub and Super Decathlon. I think my instructor quickly identified my rudder handicap from primary training in trike Cessnas and had me doing Dutch rolls first thing to demonstrate how to remain coordinated. Certainly not aerobatic by nature but an important prerequisite for performing even the most basic figures.

In my world a "dutch roll" is a fixed-wing specific term for a lateral-directional oscillation. This is a nuisance mode of motion that all aircraft experience to different degrees. It's a coupling of yaw and roll oscillations.


I've never actually done the maneuver ya'll are talking about.

Zzz wrote:

fiftynineSC wrote:Zane, serious question. What's the thought about introducing them in aerobatics? Was it part of a progression or just warm up skills? I learned them in primary, but it was billed strictly as a "how to keep the tail behind you on landing" kind of thing. I still do them every flight to wake up my feet.

Bill

It could be because my "aerobatics" course was a combination tailwheel, emergency maneuvers, spin training, and basic aerobatics in a Super Cub and Super Decathlon. I think my instructor quickly identified my rudder handicap from primary training in trike Cessnas and had me doing Dutch rolls first thing to demonstrate how to remain coordinated. Certainly not aerobatic by nature but an important prerequisite for performing even the most basic figures.

Understood on that. Heard a guy mention to his student that he needed to de-couple his hands and feet now that he was flying a TW airplane. Guess that makes sense. My experience is that I was instructed Dutch rolls along with slow flight. Basically, practice the two critical things you do in a cross wind landing....slip maintaining the centerline with high AOA but at altitude.

The aerobatic thing I think of is that it's a good thing to start thinking of "top rudder" in a roll or steep bank as it relates to your nose on the horizon.

It is a coordination exercise...but not a coordinated exercise...

But I had always heard it called Dutch rolls...not coordination rolls...

2 things here.

1) Dutch Roll as aerodynmic engineering term. An uncordinated occilation about the aircraft resulting in a yaw left and right with a rolling motion.

2) Dutch Roll as a manuver. Banking an aircraft left and right on a constant heading while remaining coordinated by use of rudder.

This is a funny thread. There are two maneuvers folks are now-days calling "dutch rolls", and even on this thread it seems like some posters are talking about one, and other folks are talking about the second. To compound things, there's an aircraft response that's also called a dutch roll (the roll/yaw coupling that camtom and mghallen posted about, where the wingtip traces an oval when flying hands off).

I'm with Jim - for the last thirty years, I've known dutch rolls as those coordination rolls - put the nose on a point, roll the airplane back and forth like you're rolling into a turn, but unloading a bit, and keep the nose on that heading. Repeat for all speeds you expect to be operating at. I use it with students to give them a sense of the rudder needed to suppress adverse yaw and maintain coordinated flight, and how that changes with speed. Having them do it with feet on the floor - so the airplane will slosh around un-coordinated, also helps plant the seed for what adverse yaw can do for you in crosswind landings.

But I've stopped calling them "dutch rolls", other than to say there now seems to be two definitions of the maneuver - because many of my students come in with their take on a "dutch roll", which is something that's almost the opposite: They'll switch from a left slip to a right slip and back, keeping the velocity vector going in the same direction. Don't know how this came to be called "dutch rolls", unless, like Jim said, it was via some ATP type who went to engineering school and learned about the above mentioned aircraft response.

So, I guess Jim and I are in the same boat. Someone took our definition and fouled it up!

--Tony

mghallen wrote:2 things here.

1) Dutch Roll as aerodynmic engineering term. An uncordinated occilation about the aircraft resulting in a yaw left and right with a rolling motion.

2) Dutch Roll as a manuver. Banking an aircraft left and right on a constant heading while remaining coordinated by use of rudder.

In 2...if you really do it right...and the nose stays on point, the ball will not be stationary. YMMV...

A good scary book comes to mind: "1984" by George Orwell. As a history teacher, I felt the pain of the main character who was forced by Big Brother to rewrite history. Wait! Did that actually come true?

I thought "Dutch" was an old-timey way of saying "fancy and edgy".

I used to work with a camera operator who would always include footage that was purposefully blurred or fast--good for music video montage intro stuff. He would say "I included some dutch footage in there for you to play with." It was about the same time those Von Dutch hats were popular, which was also fancy and edgy, supporting the theory. And those were branded after that pin stripe painter guy who was ALSO edgy and fancy.

I didn't hear an instructor say it until I was doing commercial maneuver stuff and it was kind of neat because until then I thought it was tipping your wing to the dudes down on the ground right after you took off.

We could rename it the zoom-pendulum maybe?

It's always a Dutch oven when you're in the cockpit with me.

Zzz wrote:........Jim, of all people, YOU'RE getting worked up by creative reworking of the aviation lexicon? [emoji41]

My thoughts exactly.

You guys have me there.

They are calling Dutch Rolls lots of things these days. [emoji43]

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.p ... rch-action

The etiology of the aerodynamic oscillation called a Dutch Roll comes from very early in aviation. In 1916, aeronautical engineer Jerome C. Hunsaker published the following quote: "Dutch roll – the third element in the [lateral] motion [of an airplane] is a yawing to the right and left, combined with rolling. The motion is oscillatory of period for 7 to 12 seconds, which may or may not be damped. The analogy to 'Dutch Roll' or 'Outer Edge' in ice skating is obvious." In 1916, a Dutch Roll was the term used for skating repetitively to right and left (by analogy to the motion described for the aircraft) on the outer edge of one's skates.

In this context the Dutch Roll is clearly the aerodynamic oscillation referred to by mghallen. When it became associated with the rudder coordination exercise is a mystery to me. It is a mystery to me, but my instructor had me do a lot of them in the late 1970s when I got my PPL.

We old instructors aren't always right, but we generally know what we are talking about. Communication is when an image in the writer's or speaker's mind is duplicated in the reader's or hearer's mind. Sometimes we have to go on a bit to achieve good communication. And on, and on, and on. Sorry about that.

I had some dutch rolls for breakfast last week. I still prefer a danish.