I'll do that. It's kindof weird wandering around the airport wondering if I should leave a note on some guys airplane.

Bonanza Man wrote:

z3skybolt wrote:

Bonanza man,

Did I anywhere suggest that he buy a Maule?? He followed my posting by giving thanks and saying that it was..."exactly what I was looking for." My assumption was that he was looking for numbers.

Take care,

Bob

p.s. My Maule is the 210 h.p. Continental.... burns 11 to 12 g.p.h.(gas currently around $3.60 per gallon)

No you didn't. My point was that you have to take all factors into account. Maules look good to a lot of people, they buy one and then get insurance. And find the price is horrible.
So you have the IO-360. Are you able to run that LOP? I have the IO-520 and am able to run LOP very effectively with the standard Continental injectors.

Bonanza,

No I don't run lean of peak. Personally I don't believe in the process although I know that it is becoming more and more of a common practice. I run all my engines the way the manufacturer orginally suggested. I've owned aircraft with the O-290(130hp) Pitts.... IO-540(260hp.) Skybolt and the IO-360(210 h.p.)Maule. A total of just over 1,,400 hours between the three.. No engine problems to date.

I fly a Senaca and a C-206 on a voluntary basis for a humitarian organization. Having replaced the standard injectors, they train us to run the engines lean of peak. I refuse to do so.

In the old days when the airlines were flying big round engined D-6s- 7s, Connies etc. the flight engineers ran them lean of peak, as a normal operation and quite successfully. But they had very complex "engine analyzers" on board. They could measue a fart in the cargo bay and were very skilled/educated/trained engineers.

I am not saying that doing so is wrong. Just saying that I don't believe in it with simple engines and monitoring systems. I am old school....still believe that "fuel is the cheapest thing you'll ever put in your engine."

Best of luck.

Bob

If you don't like the Maule insurance, don't fly in one. I'm telling you, you fly in one and you will want one. Before I got my M7 I flew Cessna's. I like them. Once I got in the M7 I was hooked.

You have been warned. I love my Maule. The insurance sucks.

Rob

Just my two cents on operating costs... here's how I broke down the operating costs for my 1975 7GCBC. I didn't factor in the purchase price because I assume I can get it back...

I share the operating costs, so I broke it down as a sole owner and as a partial owner. Last year I flew my airplane 125.4 hours.

To start calculating the hourly cost, I took my “split costs” which added up to $5,150.00 and are broken down as follows:
# Insurance $1,700.00 (hulled for $55K, and my brother had less than 100TT)
# Shelter - $2,910.00
# Annual - $300.00
# Oil (~ every 50 hours)- $240.00

And then added them to my “variable costs” of Gas and my maintenance fund:
# Gas (avg price of $5.41 per gallon last year. Yes, I saved every gas receipt and averaged it) - $3,903.17
# Maintenance Fund - $1,046.50

These added up to $4,949.67.

The maintenance fund is a savings account I throw 10 bucks for every tach hour flown into. The Hobbs to Tach percentage is about 80%. At 2,000 hours it would give us enough for an engine overhaul. If we decide to sell the airplane before overhaul, it gives us an upgrade fund, as I like to call it.

Overall, add $4,949.67 to $5,150.00 and divide that by 125.4. This gives me an hourly cost of $80.54. If we take my split costs and divide that $5,150.00 by two, add it to the $4,949.67, and divide it by total hours flown of 125.4 we get roughly $60.00 per hour.

If I was the sole owner and flew 125.4 hours - it would cost me around $80.00 an hour, and as it sits, it cost me about $60.00 per hour to fly it having a partner. You could actually think of it more like $50.00 an hour since $10.00 of that is actually sitting in a savings account.

Chris

Are you looking to buy a ready to fly aircraft? If not you might want to check this out, looks fairly good for what you want to do.

http://skyraiderllc.com/frontier.htm

Hell, just buy that little C150 for sale a few posts down for 16K, dump some gas in it, and fly just about anywhere you want to go for chump change or less.

Stick some liability insurance on the thing, find an A&P who'll take you under his wing so you can do all the work on it, run car gas and off you go. If you break it, so what, just fix it. Good learning experience all the way around.

Do you figure cost per mile or cost per hour on your car? Engine replacement costs? All the other expenses? I sure as hell don't, and I don't on my own airplanes. Even if you do, at $5.00 a gallon for 100LL you're only talking $30 an hour, or less, direct cost to make motor noises. That's 1970's rental prices. And with those kind of costs, you can get what you really need... Time in the seat, and experience.

It's not a "cool" bush plane, but so what. You don't need one at this stage, and that airplane will be a much better teacher in the long run anyway. It will handle dirt and gravel quite well, within reason. Learn to fly a C150 well, and you'll look good in pretty much anything else you upgrade to.

Unless you're rich, as long as you own an airplane you'll be broke, and the Old Lady will be pissed off Just a fact of aviation life, so get used to it!!!!

Just my 2 cents worth.

Gump

okay speaking for my taylorcraft "f19 here in Oregon
I fly around 75 hours a year
my insurance is $900
and my plane burns 5 gallons an hour, 0 200
and I usually figure $1500 for an annual, which comes out pretty close give or take over the past 10 years or so
so, that is $2400,plus the gas and maybe a quart of oil plus the change at 20 hours

the way I figure it pretty cheap. Go buy a ski boat or take up skiing or snowmobiling , and your numbers are going to be higher. I can guarantee it and besides, you cannot sell your ski boat or snowmobile for what you paid for it and pretty much across the board, a well-maintained airplane will in most cases go up in value or a least hold steady.

When it comes to flying. It doesn't pay to be cheap. You get what you pay for so if you buy a cheap airplane. You will get a cheap airplane, and pretty soon you're cheap airplane will cost you more in repair bills than your expensive one of the same model I would say spend a little more. It will pay you back in the long run

Gumpair has it right. That is pretty much how I "afford" my flying. I really shouldn't be flying because I can't afford it...but I make it happen anyways. I don't smoke, gamble, drink very little anymore, and rarely go to the bar. Amazing how much money a guy spends on all those things.
I do most of my own maintanence, have an IA that knows my work and signs things off. Burn car gas most of the time and in 21+ years haven't had a problem with it.

Liability for a beginning pilot is going to be much cheaper on a 150/152/172 and my opinion is you'll be able to do all your abilities can handle in one of these birds until you get some time under your belt. Actually you'll be surprised what a lightly loaded 172 can do with a decent pilot at the controls. It'll probably do 90% of what most guys need and it will do it safely and economically. Besides, any mechanic out there can work on the venerable 150/172 series of planes.

As for your question: "What is an Airknocker?"...He's refering to Aeronca's line of planes. Probably the Champ to be more specific. I never liked the looks of Champs, thought they looked like a pregnant guppy. Never thought much of them until I purchased one. They are a great little plane. Lots of them there in Alaska that are used as bush planes by their owners. Find one with a C-90, O-200 or O-235 and go have fun. They can be found in the low to mid 20's and they are cheap to fly.

WW

Me three.. In the 33 years I've owned airplanes I have never sat down and calculated the cost of owning an airplane. I don't want to know. I could never justify that sort of expense in any case.

I do it because I want to do it, because I have a passion for flying.

Ditto what Gump said. Buy a little airplane, whether it be a 150, a T Craft, or?? Learn everything you can about it, and when you feel the time is right, move on to another, perhaps more appropriate type.

MTV

I built my kitfox and do all the maintenance condition inspections myself. I have never finished calculating my cost per hour to fly it. I have started calculating it in my head a few times but each time I start that I remember why I have never finished when I reach $70/hr and there is still some more $$ to add up.

hotrod150 wrote:

Skystrider wrote:....It is a very simple mathematical rule. If you can only afford to spend $35K, then mathematically, your available resources will be insufficient to support your aircraft. This rule is also true if you scale it up to a $200K airplane or down to $10K.........

I don't understand this "simple mathematical rule" at all.
Eric

hotrod150, I was just making a jest by trying to point out that people tend to buy the most plane they can afford and then struggle with the expenses to fly them. Just like home mortgages. I think that Tick is doing his homework by considering not only the initial price but the cost per hour to fly.

Tick, my Maule M5 180C costs me about $90/hr to fly.

If I make six figures a year, then $90/hr is cheap. If I make $25K a year, then $90/hr is expensive.

May I suggest (as I think you are already doing) that you decide what you can afford to pay per hour to fly. Then buy an airplane that fits that budget. If the airplane will fly the mission you have in mind, great! If it won't, fly what it will support and don't worry about it. The important part is that you are flying.

Bonanza Man wrote:

z3skybolt wrote:

Bonanza man,

Did I anywhere suggest that he buy a Maule?? He followed my posting by giving thanks and saying that it was..."exactly what I was looking for." My assumption was that he was looking for numbers.

Take care,

Bob

p.s. My Maule is the 210 h.p. Continental.... burns 11 to 12 g.p.h.(gas currently around $3.60 per gallon)

No you didn't. My point was that you have to take all factors into account. Maules look good to a lot of people, they buy one and then get insurance. And find the price is horrible.
So you have the IO-360. Are you able to run that LOP? I have the IO-520 and am able to run LOP very effectively with the standard Continental injectors.

Hey BM--

You should change your name to "The Anti Maule" And it's always somebody that don't own one... As yer momma useta say if ya aint got nuthin nice to say keep yer trap shut. All the planes on the market have issues with price Brand C costs like hell to buy and the yearly cost is way high oh and what is the insurance cost there??? The big picture you say...... better take a look your self.

Tic--

Sorry for the rant and the thread hyjack hope you get the info you are looking for.

z3skybolt wrote:I am not saying that doing so is wrong. Just saying that I don't believe in it with simple engines and monitoring systems. I am old school....still believe that "fuel is the cheapest thing you'll ever put in your engine."

Best of luck.

Bob

We'll have to agree to disagree there. The science is out there if you want to learn about it.

http://www.advancedpilot.com/index.html

Also not only is fuel not the cheapest thing you put in your engine it is the most expensive. Running LOP makes your gas mileage go up. Over the course of my 1700 hour TBO I will save 2 GPH on average. Multiply 3400 gallons times your average fuel price. An engine monitor is nice but not necessary. I don't have one, just the basic single point EGT and CHT.

tcraft wrote:
the way I figure it pretty cheap. Go buy a ski boat or take up skiing or snowmobiling , and your numbers are going to be higher. I can guarantee it and besides, you cannot sell your ski boat or snowmobile for what you paid for it and pretty much across the board, a well-maintained airplane will in most cases go up in value or a least hold steady.

I bought a used plane and two years ago I bought my brothers boat, a 20 foot Bayliner speedboat. Cost me $8000. You're right they do go down in value but will settle in at a final value of $2-3,000. I bought my Bo at what turned out to be the high point of the market in the summer of 2005. The airplane is worth at least $10-15K less than what I paid for it. It'll come back in value but there is depreciation going on right now for all airplanes.
No way does owning the boat cost anywhere near an airplane. It cost $150 a year for full insurance coverage. Nothing to store as it sits alongside the garage. A tank of gas(32 gallons) lasts all day. No annual expenses. Change the engine oil and lower unit oil every other year. So far nothing has broke although I do need another prop as mine is dinged up. There's $100. $300 if I go stainless. I've had several campers over the years, they are more expensive than the boat but nowhere near the airplane. Even if I bought that brand new Crownline 20 footer at my local marina for $42K that I've been drooling over boating would still be cheaper than flying. Now maybe if a guy had a 30+ foot cruiser and had slip fees the gap would close.

Hottshot wrote:
Hey BM--

You should change your name to "The Anti Maule" And it's always somebody that don't own one... As yer momma useta say if ya aint got nuthin nice to say keep yer trap shut. All the planes on the market have issues with price Brand C costs like hell to buy and the yearly cost is way high oh and what is the insurance cost there??? The big picture you say...... better take a look your self.

Tic--

Sorry for the rant and the thread hyjack hope you get the info you are looking for.

I've got a little time in a friends Maule. They're OK. Can't fly it anymore as she wrecked it.

Be sure to check out these guys in addition to skyraider.

www.kitfoxaircraft.com
www.airdale.com

If your just looking at doing day VFR and not going on X-country trips all the time there's no reason these experimentals can't work for you. Take my little Avid for example. It has a 1085 gross. At 490lbs empty that's an almost 600lb useful load. It cruises at 90 mph and burns 4gph of auto gas. It will take off in 100 ft all day long and climb at 1000fpm+

No STC's, I can rebuild my engine myself for $1500 in parts, I can do all my own maintenance legally and any A&P can sign off the annual. Had I built it myself I could do it. The wings fold up in 10 minutes. I'm paying for 1/4 of a standard T hangar to hangar it.

I have very little TW time and insurance is less than I pay for my truck.

I can't fathom paying 50K for a plane and then 8-10K a year to own it when you guys do the same exact flying I'll be doing most of the time. Sure I'd love to have a Maule, Supercub, Citabria, C-170, ect. I can't afford it.. period but yet I still manage to fly and have a damn fun time doing it for pennies of what it would cost me own a certified airplane.

Quote Bonanza man..

Also not only is fuel not the cheapest thing you put in your engine it is the most expensive. Running LOP makes your gas mileage go up. Over the course of my 1700 hour TBO I will save 2 GPH on average. Multiply 3400 gallons times your average fuel price. An engine monitor is nice but not necessary. I don't have one, just the basic single point EGT and CHT.


*******

Thanks for the friendly exchange,

"Single point EGT and CHT." Exactly the point. What are the other 5 cylinders doing?


Best Wishes,

Bob

Hi Tick,

Your question is a valid one. Whatever you do, LSA, standard, or Maule, don't go buy the cheapest one you find. Look for a solid machine, doesn't have to be perfect. Stay away from anything that is close to an overhaul unless you can absolutely steal it...in my opinion, that's when you lose. My dad and I have owned 9 airplanes in the last 25 years, not one a bargain. We've flown and enjoyed them all, and didn't overhaul a single one of them. Haven't lost a dime on one...yet.

gb

Skystrider wrote:.............hotrod150, I was just making a jest by trying to point out that people tend to buy the most plane they can afford and then struggle with the expenses to fly them. .........

I'll agree with that. A good example would be an older, run down and run out complex single or light twin. Cheap to buy considering how much airplane you get... but expensive to operate & horribly expensive to fix when things start breaking. Look at what those cool old straight-tail C-310's are going for these days... then think about your costs after the purchase.

Eric

Bonanza Man wrote:

Hottshot wrote:
Hey BM--

You should change your name to "The Anti Maule" And it's always somebody that don't own one... As yer momma useta say if ya aint got nuthin nice to say keep yer trap shut. All the planes on the market have issues with price Brand C costs like hell to buy and the yearly cost is way high oh and what is the insurance cost there??? The big picture you say...... better take a look your self.

Tic--

Sorry for the rant and the thread hyjack hope you get the info you are looking for.

I've got a little time in a friends Maule. They're OK. Can't fly it anymore as she wrecked it.

He has a point though. How much insurance can you buy with the money saved between a comparable Maule and Cessna 180? A lot. Though 180 prices are coming down...but all the prices are coming down. Except for the 206's. Those prices are staying put

Now Tick this conversation is somewhat of a threadjack but there is a message there too, for other models. If you plan on getting hull insurance quote before you buy. For a $20k plane I probably wouldn't, personally. Liability? Hell yea.