Hi everyone,

I'm doing a little research about the specific techniques that people have used when flying around crater late. With the limitations placed by the crater lake national park, how have you maximized yours and your passengers viewing pleasure without getting in hot water? I'm supposed to maintain 2000' AGL, but in what radius? Do I need to maintain roughly 10000' MSL the entire way? Is it even worth it?

Thanks!!

Photos are very appreciated!

Well worth it. Just stay 2000AGL and you should be fine. Personally my favorite AGL is 1200 so 2000isn't that bad.



G'Day

Just remember the AGL is just a ( suggestion)... The NPS will try to try to excercise authority it does NOT have..

So, this part is pretty confusing...

"FAA Advisory Circular AC91-36 defines the surface of a National Park area as: the highest terrain within 2,000 feet laterally of the route of flight, or the upper-most rim of a canyon or valley. Simply stated, find the highest ground on your flight path and add 2,000 feet to your cruising altitude."

So, does that mean that I should be at 10,000' because a part of the rim is at 8,000', or can I claim that a crater isn't a valley or a canyon and do a circuit around the lake (over 2000' lateral distance from the rim) at 8200'.

Keeping in mind that I do understand your point Stol, it's a "request" but I've only been licensed for 4 months, so I'm still pretty timid about these things.

Self preservation is also worth considering; if memory serves me correctly there are lots of tall tress and not many options for a successful landing if the fan stops. Remaining 2,000ft agl or above demonstrates good judgement in certain situations and this location may be one of them - food for thought anyway.

My take on the 2,000 foot request is that it exists primarily to reduce aircraft noise over sensitive areas. Reduced power and shallow glide will minimize your noise footprint should you inadvertently slip below the requested altitude. That may keep you from even being noticed.

So, does that mean that I should be at 10,000' because a part of the rim is at 8,000', or can I claim that a crater isn't a valley or a canyon and do a circuit around the lake (over 2000' lateral distance from the rim) at 8200'.

I wouldn'f fly over the lake at less than gliding distance WELL PAST the rim. If I remember correctly the park service considered recovering the helicopter using a deep diving sub and billing the helicopter owner. They use a sub occassionally for research. They have to sling it down to the lake with a large helicopter. It is not a cheap operation.

http://www.craterlakeinstitute.com/cult ... deaths.htm

September 24, 1995
An Aerospatiale AS 350 helicopter from Seattle, (heading for Las Vegas) crashes and sinks in 1,500 feet of water between Wizard Island and the Lodge. Several dozen Park visitors watched while the helicopter skimmed over the smooth surface of the Lake and then suddenly plunged into the deep water. Speculation is that the pilot, George W. Causey, 52, of Enumclaw, WA, became confused by the near perfect reflection as he flew toward the Lake reflection thinking it was the sky. There was no indication of engine problems. Killed, along with the pilot. was passenger Edward O. Tulleners of West Linn, on his 45th birthday. The helicopter was a seven passenger Eurocopter, built by the World’s largest manufacturer of civil helicopters. Little was recovered except for some shreds of the rotors and a seat cushion. In June, 1996, Park Superintendent Al Hendricks was quoted as saying, “The technology is there to proceed with recover. What we are struggling with is whether it’s worth it. Both families decided the bottom of Crater Lake would be a pretty good place (for the crash victims) to spend eternity.”

tcj wrote:

So, does that mean that I should be at 10,000' because a part of the rim is at 8,000', or can I claim that a crater isn't a valley or a canyon and do a circuit around the lake (over 2000' lateral distance from the rim) at 8200'.

I wouldn'f fly over the lake at less than gliding distance WELL PAST the rim. If I remember correctly the park service considered recovering the helicopter using a deep diving sub and billing the helicopter owner. They use a sub occassionally for research. They have to sling it down to the lake with a large helicopter. It is not a cheap operation.

Yikes! I know one of the researchers that does the deep underwater UUV research. There is some pretty crazy stuff down there.

hpux735 wrote:

tcj wrote:

So, does that mean that I should be at 10,000' because a part of the rim is at 8,000', or can I claim that a crater isn't a valley or a canyon and do a circuit around the lake (over 2000' lateral distance from the rim) at 8200'.

I wouldn'f fly over the lake at less than gliding distance WELL PAST the rim. If I remember correctly the park service considered recovering the helicopter using a deep diving sub and billing the helicopter owner. They use a sub occassionally for research. They have to sling it down to the lake with a large helicopter. It is not a cheap operation.

Yikes! I know one of the researchers that does the deep underwater UUV research. There is some pretty crazy stuff down there.

Did he elaborate? Crazy stuff eh?? Like alien space ships? Jimmy Hoffa wearing a 70's style cement shoes?? Now that would be crazy!
Id like to hear more.

exodus wrote:

hpux735 wrote:
Yikes! I know one of the researchers that does the deep underwater UUV research. There is some pretty crazy stuff down there.

Did he elaborate? Crazy stuff eh?? Like alien space ships? Jimmy Hoffa wearing a 70's style cement shoes?? Now that would be crazy!
Id like to hear more.

Haha, I wish. I'm afraid I'm going to disappoint, so I'll say that I work in the oceanography department at OSU, and crazy stuff is in terms of biological oceanography. But, deep under the water, there are some algal mats that are hundreds of feet thick. It's a phenomenon that's mostly unseen anywhere else in the world. If I can scrounge up some video I'll link to it. One thing those guys like doing is attaching a normal styrofoam coffee cup to the UUV, and when it comes up it's about the same size as a shot glass.

hpux735 wrote:

exodus wrote:

hpux735 wrote:
Yikes! I know one of the researchers that does the deep underwater UUV research. There is some pretty crazy stuff down there.

Did he elaborate? Crazy stuff eh?? Like alien space ships? Jimmy Hoffa wearing a 70's style cement shoes?? Now that would be crazy!
Id like to hear more.

Haha, I wish. I'm afraid I'm going to disappoint, so I'll say that I work in the oceanography department at OSU, and crazy stuff is in terms of biological oceanography. But, deep under the water, there are some algal mats that are hundreds of feet thick. It's a phenomenon that's mostly unseen anywhere else in the world. If I can scrounge up some video I'll link to it. One thing those guys like doing is attaching a normal styrofoam coffee cup to the UUV, and when it comes up it's about the same size as a shot glass.

Your right, you did disappoint Algal mats.. ummm booooring. I wonder though if anything exists in the deepest part of crater lake, just short of 2000' deep. Be cool if you could link some video. Thanks.

Reading about the supposed cause of the helicopter crash into the lake, I had that happen to me once coming into Sandpoint Idaho across Lake Pend Oreille. I was looking down at the lake, from about 1,000 AGL., and admiring the way the blue lake with white fog banks was reflecting the blue sky with white clouds, and all of a sudden I got queasy. Vertigo, not a good feeling. I looked back up to the horizon and it instantly went away, I thought about what had just happened, and knowing full well what had caused the illusion (inverted flight) I looked straight down again to see if it would happen again, and it did. The rest of the way across the lake I kept my eyes on the horizon.

That also reminds me of a guy I knew who went into Jackson Lake and I believe was never recovered. STOL, you know anything about that? About 20 or 25 years ago, a pretty dramatic final resting place, like Crater Lake.

After posting the above I realized I could just google for the info on Horn's crash, and found out it was a different lake and they did recover the bodies. I flew ultralights with John, and we were both featured in a National Geographic article, along with others, back in '83. We used to fly up to his (very wealthy) mothers place on a Jackson hill and get served coffee and crossaints (?) by the maid. Once I remember seeing a Standard Oil stockholder magazine on the coffee table, very old and large money in the family, pretty heady stuff for a guy from Inkom! A real Wyoming pilot, I rode along in his 340 one year to Oshkosh, and on the way back he and his buddy went to sleep in the back and left me up front doing the flying (watching the auto pilot), as I was still just an ultralight and hang glider pilot then, it was more heady stuff. It started getting bumpy and I was getting concerned a little, John woke up and said "feels like we're back in Wyoming". We checked and sure enough had just crossed the border!

Point being, watch out for lakes!

Lakes at that latitude and altitude are cold. The water could easily kill a normal person, even if they could make it to shore. Be careful!

No need to fly over the Caldera/lake. The best views are from around the rim.

Just throttle back, and fly around it in the direction that gives your passengers the best views. Mornings are great, since you can get a perfect mirror effect on the lake.

courierguy wrote:...we were both featured in a National Geographic article, along with others, back in '83.

Wow, that's pretty cool. Do you happen to have a scan of the article? What as it about?

Zzz, It was the August '83 issue, and that's my bird on the cover, but the photographer, that I had taught to fly (ultralights anyway), is piloting. Better then the cover of the Rolling Stone! The last picture of the article on the then current fad of ultralight aircraft shows me over (13K anyway) the Grand Teton. No cabin heat, in fact, no cabin, so pretty chilly My 15 minutes of fame. The other pic of me is at the gas pumps, we were in N. Dakota then and Chuck told me to "go find a small town where you can land close and taxi right up to the pumps". No problemo, took about a half hour, the kid on the bike in the foreground and the old timer in the overalls and the sportjacket made the shot according to Chuck. I have nice big reprints of these (prominently labeled COPYRIGHT BY NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC) on the hangar wall. that was for the ultralight article, after that we got together later and I was hired to be the camera ship used in thermaling with pelicans (at a bird sanctuary in N Dakota right next to a low level B-52 training area, I had to keep one eye on the gaggle I was circling with and one on the Buff's) in an article on birds. I was paid $200 a day and all expenses, in '83 dollars. That article never came to fruition, as many do, their budget is unreal and price is no problem! Fun times!

This One?
Pete
http://backissues.com/issue/National-Ge ... ugust-1983

That's my bird: the bags on the side, accessible in flight, came off quickly when I checked into a motel room (not often back then, no money). That plus the under wing zippers accessed (for the compression strut assembly when car topping it) pretty much hollow wing made for a lot more storage. You could just stuff soft items in until you decided that maybe the airfoil was getting a bit too distorted, I could never tell any difference though. Said compression struts also made a perfect toilet paper holder when crapping under the wing 1,000 fpm climb at 35 mph so STEEP climbouts, always less then 100' takeoffs, a great power off soarer, as the wing was based on the Fledge rigid wing hang glider, and great rough field gear. But, zero cross wind capability! 45 mph cruise and car toppable with no special rack, rental cars and hitch hiking with it were done, no kidding.

I was a dealer for Manta, the HG company that made the wing, and then a Pterodactyl dealer, so I got them cheap and actually made some pretty good dough for a few years selling them, during the big ultralight boom. Another way flying has been good to me

courierguy wrote:After posting the above I realized I could just google for the info on Horn's crash, and found out it was a different lake and they did recover the bodies. I flew ultralights with John, and we were both featured in a National Geographic article, along with others, back in '83. We used to fly up to his (very wealthy) mothers place on a Jackson hill and get served coffee and crossaints (?) by the maid. Once I remember seeing a Standard Oil stockholder magazine on the coffee table, very old and large money in the family, pretty heady stuff for a guy from Inkom! A real Wyoming pilot, I rode along in his 340 one year to Oshkosh, and on the way back he and his buddy went to sleep in the back and left me up front doing the flying (watching the auto pilot), as I was still just an ultralight and hang glider pilot then, it was more heady stuff. It started getting bumpy and I was getting concerned a little, John woke up and said "feels like we're back in Wyoming". We checked and sure enough had just crossed the border!

Point being, watch out for lakes!

Yeah.. John crashed into Fremont Lake down by Pinedale, They did remove the bodies a few days later and retrieved the plane the next spring.

Oregon180 wrote:No need to fly over the Caldera/lake. The best views are from around the rim.

Just throttle back, and fly around it in the direction that gives your passengers the best views. Mornings are great, since you can get a perfect mirror effect on the lake.

Good point, thanks!

Also, I asked around at the FBO, and I heard good things about the restaurant across the street from Chiloquin State (2S7), Melita's I think. Anyone been there?