M6RV6 wrote:Got no X's on mine, Baggers welcome!! Even 2 baggers are welcome
82WN

Hell yeah... That was our old unit motto.

Go ugly early, and you never go without!

Gump

I got the same sort of issue with my British Columbia property on the Dean Channel. There's 4,000 feet of shoreline on the place and a really great little harbor. And it's the only harbor for many, many miles.

At times it can be a real pain in the ass when a boatload of dipshits motors in making noise. On the other hand, some really wonderful people have wandered in with cool boats and great stories to tell. And that far out in the middle of nowhere, it's mostly the cool ones who are out there.

And, when the weather's bad, that harbor is a life saver. For that reason we don't sign the shoreline, not wanting someone to get in a bad way with winds and heavy water for fear of a trespassing issue, and end up out where they have no protection.

Gump

I was raised to respect private property, airstrip or not. We were taught that is was a no-no to ride your dirtbike on someone's property without asking. To me, it feels like some false sense of entitlement to land on a private airstrip just because it's there. Why should a landowner be forced to blight the view of their property with big white X's just to communicate whether it's open for public use or not? That's the point of the private airport designation: You're tasked with seeking permission and the means to do so is freely available.

If you extend an open invitation to pilots on the internet to bag your strip, then that's how you've handled your property. You're a good guy.

I'm not real sure but I don't think I can make my airport 82WN a public use airport with out it having public use facility's like access without crossing private property?
Anyone got the answer out there to that question??
Thanks if yo do!

There sure are some different definitions out there, here are some from Oregon

Posts Tagged ‘Difference between a private airport and a public-use airport’
Difference between a private airport and a public-use airport
When we think of public use airports, it is usually the commercial service airports that immediately come to mind. This is because of their size and familiarity to the broad public. However, Oregon´s system of more than 100 public use airports includes only half a dozen commercial service airports. The remainder of our public use facilities vary in size from small private airports to regional and reliever general aviation airports. All public use airports fall into designated airport categories, for purposes of the Oregon Aviation Plan.
When considering private use airports these are primarily associated with private air charter services, one advantage to using a private airport is the privacy factor. Diplomatic or corporate confidentiality may be compromised by taking a public flight, but using a private airport insures that travel details are kept confidential, including the destination, members of the traveling party, and potential return dates. Thanks to pre-arranged limousine service delivery right up to the airplanes steps and thus avoiding a public walk through a commercial airport, an additional layer of privacy is provided for any business conducted in transit. The best air charter providers offer true door-to-door service, rather than from airport to airport. When it comes to diplomatic or corporate privacy, such complete service is true private travel with major privacy benefits.

Category Significant Function Designation Criteria
1 Commercial Service Airports Accommodate scheduled major/ national or regional/commuter commercial air carrier
service.
Scheduled commercial service.
2 Business or High Activity General Aviation Airports Accommodate corporate aviation activity, including business jets, helicoptors, and other general aviation activities.
30,000 or more annual operations, of which a minimum of 500 are business related aircraft. Business use heliports.
3 Regional General Aviation Airports Accommodate a wide range of general aviation users for large service areas in outlying parts of Oregon. many also accommodate seasonal regional fire response activities with large aircraft.
Generally less than 30,000 operations.
Geographically significant location with multiple communities in the service area. Nearest Category 1 or 2 airport is more than 90 minutes average travel time by road.
4 Community General Aviation Airports Accommodate general aviation users and local business activities.
2,500 or more annual operations or more than ten based aircraft.
5 Low Activity General Aviation Airports Accommodate limited general aviation use in smaller communities and remote areas or Oregon. Provide emergency and recreational use function.
Less than 2,500 annual operations and ten or fewer based aircraft.
Changes in airport categorization will be based on measured changes against the designation criteria. Airports may request review by Department of Aviation of their categorization at any time. To move between categories, the airport must meet designation criteria using a three-year average. The inventory itself will be updated approximately every five years and a system-wide review of categories will be conducted.
General Aviation Airports: Airports with fewer than 2,500 annual enplaned passengers used exclusively by private business aircraft not providing commercial air carrier passenger service.

Zzz wrote:I was raised to respect private property, airstrip or not. We were taught that is was a no-no to ride your dirtbike on someone's property without asking. To me, it feels like some false sense of entitlement to land on a private airstrip just because it's there. Why should a landowner be forced to blight the view of their property with big white X's just to communicate whether it's open for public use or not?

Most of us were taught that. Problem is, it's hard to see where private and public property lines are from the air. You're walking or riding along on the ground, it's pretty plain to see that no trespassing sign on the gate, so you don't go through it. But flogging along in your beater airplane, especially out in the boonies, is that uncharted strip an old logging strip on USFS land, or, as in the case of Flying M Ranch discussed in another thread, a Supercub strip for some rich guy's hunting club and off-limits for everyone else?

Gump.

Originally we were talking about CB and a different type of private airport altogether, with memberships and fees etc. Since the conversation has turned to recreational flying on Private Property, like someones personal airport, I'd like to give our perspective on how everything works in TX anyways.

The big deal with giving permission to land on private property is liability. Many states have been able to include "recreational aviation" to their RUS (Recreational Use Statute). If you are in one of those states then you are in the clear to give permission to whoever you want, as long as you do not charge for use of the airport, landing fees, tie-down fees, etc (read on RAF's website for more accurate info). This last year we fought to have our RUS amended here in TX, even went to the capitol personally and testified with a few others. Unfortunately, we did not get the bill past the House, as it took too long to get the bill through the Committee. The Texas Trial Lawyers successfully drug it out long enough at the Committee, so that when it finally made the House, there was not enough time left to get a vote and it died there.

Point is, just know what you can and can't do in your state, cover your ass. We would love nothing more than to open our strip to any BCP'er type pilots who can respect that we are a working cattle and guest ranch. However, as of now, I cannot give permission without exposing ourselves to massive liability. So we can't yet give permission, but if you can read between the lines ...I am an airplane junky and love just about everything aviation, it burns my ass to have to play games because of BS lawyer stuff. My family worked their whole lives to have our ranch and can't risk being sued, we were sued many times in the construction business for total BS and had to settle. It's not a trust thing at all, and aviation seems to have the most solid group of people involved as I have ever come across, all it takes is one bad apple

I believe most pilots and private airport owners, like my family, would love nothing more than to have a bunch of planes drop in. Around here they just want to make sure that they know you well, if they are gonna give permission, for the reasons stated above.......like the saying goes, easier to ask for forgiveness than permission

Private is private as far as I'm concerned. Anything else is trespass. It's simple respect.

skalywag: we had the same issue in the Oregon legislature last session. The trial lawyers killed our bill. We will be back next session with the lawyers concerns addressed.

Cheers...Rob

OregonMaule wrote:skalywag: we had the same issue in the Oregon legislature last session. The trial lawyers killed our bill. We will be back next session with the lawyers concerns addressed.

Cheers...Rob

I was going to mention this very thing. BCP member Drifter has been very active toward this issue, but even with a good push this last year, the Oregon Trial Lawyers Assoc were able to buy off the committee members who could get it to a vote or ballot or whatever it takes. Talk about conflict of interest...

Couple of thoughts here.

First, I'd be hesitant to blame "trial lawyers" for the inability to get any bill through any legislature. Although I've never been a member of any trial lawyers organization, I have seen "trial lawyers" blamed for a lot of issues over the years--and often they've had nothing to do with it. For instance, ask any doc why his malpractice insurance is so high, and you'll hear "trial lawyers", but considering that the vast majority of medical malpractice suits are either settled or tried to a defense verdict, that's bogus. Blame the insurance companies; they're the ones setting the premiums.

From my own limited experience on behalf of the Wyoming Airport Operators Association, of which I was a founding member, lobbying the Wyoming legislature was an exercise in disappointment and frustration, not because of any anti-airport group or any other group, but because the legislative system is cumbersome and, dare I say, political. It took several years to get decent state funding for airports, through the efforts of many. So if you want to get something through any state legislature, don't give up after one try. Keep trying, and although it may take several years, if it's good legislation, it'll happen. But don't be suckered into believing that one group or another is to blame because it didn't happen this year or next.

Second, regarding using others' property, certainly it's disappointing when someone with a nice airstrip doesn't want others to use it--but it is their land, and liability aside for any accidents, why shouldn't they be able to grant or not grant permission, as they see fit?

I used to fly into Lee Schloredt's strip near Sundance, WY, until it was closed after Lee died. Before the first time, I called him to ask permission, and he graciously gave it. Almost every time I flew in, he was there to greet me, as I always circled over the town to let my Mom know I was there. Before it was paved, when I got the 182 stuck in the mud, he helped me extricate it.

But I was there one day when someone just "dropped in"--and Lee, who was very diplomatic about it, had quite a discussion with the pilot about just dropping in without permission. The pilot ended up apologizing, and then Lee ended the conversation with "feel free to come in again some time."

At the end of the weekend at Marble, I was chatting with Glen, the owner. Several times he's invited me to come back at times other than the annual fly-in, and all he asks is that I let him know via email when I'm coming. He's had legitimate concerns about people flying in uninvited--it's not the world's easiest airstrip to use, and there have been at least 2 fatalities that I'm familiar with, so he wants to have his release signed and some assurance that the pilots are capable.

But not everyone honors the rights of property owners very well. At the fly-in at Marble this year, some fishermen plopped their tent right in the middle of the runway on Friday night, and initially they were just a little cantankerous when someone told them it shouldn't be there. By the time Glen went to ask them to move it, they were less annoying and moved it right away. Then during the day Saturday, a couple of horseback riders rode down the middle of the runway, leaving road apples and risking pilots--and they were annoying enough that Glen told them to get their horses off the property and not return (too bad--the gal was a looker!), after the man demanded Glen's name so he could check county records to see if Glen actually owned the property.

So I have no problem if a property owner says "no" if I ask permission, whether it's to camp or fly in or whatever, no more than I want someone whom I don't know to use my backyard as their camp spot.

Cary

Cary, the Oregon Trial Lawyers Association is an actual lobby group in our state legislature, and saw fit to actively oppose giving landowners with airstrips explicit mention in the Oregon recreational use statutes. As a layman and outsider (to the capitol), I can only assume that this is a maneuver in the interest of their own job security, as protecting any activity from litigation must be perceived as taking money from their pockets.

On the other hand, they may have had a legitimate concern about the way the legislation was drafted, as opposed to any concern for their incomes. Who really knows?

I've spent so much of my life having to work with statutes which were poorly drafted, and which led to some bizarre but unexpected consequences, that I often question whether it's in anyone's best interests to even have the statutes in the first place.

I haven't taken the time to look at the proposed Oregon statute, but we have a recreational use statute in Colorado designed to put the onus back on the person doing the recreating, rather than on the property owner, such as a ski area. It's not perfect, because of course it was designed for one purpose and then other purposes were later included. We also have a statute that protects public property on which there are airstrips from being the subject of lawsuits--and yet, we have town attorneys who tell the town to buy insurance--which effectively waives that protection. Go figure.

We also have a Premises Liability Act, which is pretty protective of property owners to the extent it limits their liability to some extent, but mostly it clarifies their liability instead of having to rely on case law.

So anyway, I can see lots of potential reasons why some legislation should or should not be passed, not because this or that group is for it or against it, but because of the nature of the legislation. As I said before, if it's good legislation, it makes sense to keep trying to get it passed and not give up just because it didn't make it through after one effort. But take the time to analyze it from a legal perspective, to see if perhaps it needs some honing and tweaking before trying again.

Cary

I guess we are lucky in Idaho as to not worry much about private property liability issues. Sorry for my ignorance again on not understanding other states private property liability issues.

Also, I guess there are always 1 percenters that always seem to screw things up for the other 99 percenters

+1 on the Awesome skiing and Mountain Biking to be had in Crested Butte.

Having lived there between 1995-1997, it appeared at the time to be difficult to obtain permission to land. Looks like things haven't really changed, though the owners have. I guess understandable, given the elevation. There was a nice Beaver going in and out of there for a while.

It seemed like a great strip. I biked the length of it a number of times. Never got to land there

Those trail descriptions brought back many happy memories. Ah, what a place!

I went to Steamboat last weekend instead of Crested Butte however;

I just got a call back from the manager who was out of town last week. He'd like $20 to stay the day and $50 overnight. I'm sure if you are there over a weekend $50 would be acceptable.

When he first called he assumed I had already been in and out of the airport being that it took him a while to return my call. He was going to let the fee slide but asked for payment in the future. The manager is a retired dentist who bought the land hoping to develop it. He’s not a pilot. We ended the call with an agreement to meet for lunch or a drink before I fly out there in the future since he lives close to where I work.

My take is: try to get a hold of him before flying in there. Send him payment and be grateful he is keeping the airport open as a person who is otherwise uninterested in flying. If you don’t get a hold of him it doesn’t sound like the end of the world to land there; that said I'd put a check for a few bucks in the mail.

It looks like a great little paved strip and I'm looking forward to landing there soon.

On a side note it sounds like the lots are reduced in price. I think there was someone who posted about a retirement location “out west” in another thread. This is a great place to check out and it would be great to have a BCP’er there!

I realize this is a bit of an older thread, but had to throw my 2 cents in here.

If you want some great mountain biking, and some decent skiing (not as good as Crested Butte), but you want to fly in and be CLOSE to the mountain and town, then I would suggest KAXX (Angel Fire, New Mexico).

As a kid, I grew up in East Texas, and we would do some kind of mountain trip every year (but it had to be some place we could drive to). We were all over Colorado and also Northern New Mexico - so when I had a chance to get a job in Taos - I jumped on it.

I didn't realize at the time how great (but small) the aviation community is up here in the mountains of New Mexico. Taos has two runways, Angel Fire has one. Winds can be tough in Angel Fire at times, but you can always land in Taos (KSKX).

KAXX is awesome because it is literally 2 miles from the resort. There are over 50 miles of mountain biking trails and 72 runs of varying degrees of difficulty for skiing. In the summer we also have golf, fly fishing, and off-roading. Plus, you get to fly into the 4th highest airport in the country at 8,380 feet, but at least you get an 8,900 x 100 ft. runway to do it on.

There is only one hangar on the field, but plenty of tie-downs. Fuel is reasonable, and Neal (the airport manager) will just give any of us local pilots a call to give you a ride into town. Lift tickets are about $70 a day, and we have good military / Veteran discounts. Also, be sure to visit the Vietnam Veterans Memorial when you are here...it was the very first one in the country.

It took me a long time to finally get my license, but I love being able to use it up here in the mountains.

Spencer

...

I've always wondered about that strip and access to it. We spend a decent amount of time in CB.

Don't forget Salida has an awesome new (well, not so new these days) airport manager who's totally turned the place around. And access to mountain biking and skiing that (shhhh) rivals even places like CB. Not to mention tons of nice, reasonable vacation rentals and other lodging options that don't suffer the CB "destination" tax.

shamons wrote:I realize this is a bit of an older thread, but had to throw my 2 cents in here.

If you want some great mountain biking, and some decent skiing (not as good as Crested Butte), but you want to fly in and be CLOSE to the mountain and town, then I would suggest KAXX (Angel Fire, New Mexico).

As a kid, I grew up in East Texas, and we would do some kind of mountain trip every year (but it had to be some place we could drive to). We were all over Colorado and also Northern New Mexico - so when I had a chance to get a job in Taos - I jumped on it.

I didn't realize at the time how great (but small) the aviation community is up here in the mountains of New Mexico. Taos has two runways, Angel Fire has one. Winds can be tough in Angel Fire at times, but you can always land in Taos (KSKX).

KAXX is awesome because it is literally 2 miles from the resort. There are over 50 miles of mountain biking trails and 72 runs of varying degrees of difficulty for skiing. In the summer we also have golf, fly fishing, and off-roading. Plus, you get to fly into the 4th highest airport in the country at 8,380 feet, but at least you get an 8,900 x 100 ft. runway to do it on.

There is only one hangar on the field, but plenty of tie-downs. Fuel is reasonable, and Neal (the airport manager) will just give any of us local pilots a call to give you a ride into town. Lift tickets are about $70 a day, and we have good military / Veteran discounts. Also, be sure to visit the Vietnam Veterans Memorial when you are here...it was the very first one in the country.

It took me a long time to finally get my license, but I love being able to use it up here in the mountains.

Spencer

I am considering that. I usually carpool with a group to Sunlight Mountain, but driving is really starting to annoy me. Angel Fire would be fun. I have snowboarded there once.

So I guess you may see me sometime in the future.

Does anybody have any recent info on Crested Butte? Going to see a friend there next week.