GlassPilot wrote:Split from the Almost Bent Some Metal thread IN Live to Tell. -Z
----------------------------------------------

Hottshot wrote:

pdknight wrote: We set up on an extended straight-in

First off thanks for sharing and don't take this like I am beating you up but at a unfamiliar airport or any airport unless towered and instructed to do so DON'T do straight in's!! Please..... it can get you in a heap of trouble. We had a UL on the ground the other day that had a gear failure and some wise guy decided to do a straight in and didn't announce (I had radio in back pocket) and almost caused a pretty serous FUBAR, had he come in (even un-announced) and entered the pattern proper like it would have saved us all a little pucker factor.

There is nothing wrong with a straight in approach. Check the AIM. It's okay. Seems to me your complaint anyway was the guy wasn't using the radio. That's another matter.

Wow see what one little comment gets ya..... I just said Please don't do it nuthing about legal or not I was just giving a heads up guess that will teach a fella to keep his thoughts to himself....

Dang....... some of you guys went off the rev limiter today

Interesting stuff though

One additional method to watch for other relatively slow traffic in a flat/rural/ag located airport environment on a sunny day is to keep checking the area around YOUR shadow for any OTHER aircraft shadows. Obviously only works near pattern altitude and lower, but that is where the most threats are.....right? Negates 'blind spot' issues unless it (shadow) is right under you or behind you, but it will move when you change locations in the pattern.......

One more 'tool' in the safety bag........

Compliments of my primary instructor-1966

lc

Another good reason for flying low. Puts most of the other planes above the horizon where they are easier to see.

hotrod150 wrote:

shortfielder wrote:........ I would think that a pilot that went through the downwind, base, final proceedure had right away, over a pilot who just doesn't want to be bothered with proceedure when others are in the pattern. .........

If it was about common sense or common courtesy, yes. But it's not. Read 91.113 (g) again: aircraft on final approach to land have right of way. If you fly a pattern & turn in front of a guy doing a straight-in, and there is a conflict, you are the one violating the FAR's. Read that part of 91.113(g) right after the red-highlighted part in the earlier post.
The only grey area is where a straight-in "approach" become a "final approach".

Coupla points to make here (Hotrod - these comments are not directed at you):

1) The FAR are not the place to look for an answer ... if there is a serious "conflict", it means most likely that you and the other guy just had a mid air (not a tongue lashing) and it's all in the hands of the lawyers (god help your survivors/estate) ... if you're one of the two conflicting pilots, you're history, and beyond worrying about a FAA citation or who got the better of the argument.

2) It's true this isn't about courtesy (although courtesy is a good thing in all circumstances) ... it's about safety. Pilots love to argue and pontificate endlessly on this and other boards, about this subject and a thousand others where "never the twain shall meet", so this thread is probably not going to change any minds ... but ... if you like to fly a long straight-in approach (like 10+ miles) at uncontrolled airports, you're compromising safety ... because you have not fully or even reasonably investigated either the airport or the traffic. Enter and fly the pattern, and you're adding to your margin of safety ... and you're also adding to the margin of safety of any other traffic in the air or on the ground at that airport.

Why knowingly fly less safe? ... because you don't want to be bothered? You can't afford to spend an extra two minutes in the pattern?

I got an idea

I'm thinking about moving to a town in the middle of Nevada that has a really fun airport to hang at. Most of the time, I'll have to compete with just ONE other pilot. But that's OK, a Yellow plane is easy to see!!

There's only one weekend a year that I'll need to worry about other traffic besides that Yellow plane. Besides, I'll stay on the ground that weekend, because I don't want to take a chance of a fast moving Biz Jet running into me

Pat
I wouldn't worry about that biz jet. I've seen it fly there. There are extremely careful, rolling to see any traffic in any direction.

shortfielder wrote:Pat
I wouldn't worry about that biz jet. I've seen it fly there. There are extremely careful, rolling to see any traffic in any direction.

Hahaha...... true that!!

BTW.... I like that "Bottle Opener"!!!

NineThreeKilo wrote:
One last caveat, I am just as large a elitist Tailwheel pilot as anyone else, HOWEVER I have seen weekend warriors playing "Mr Alaska bush pilot" bounce in on their tundras and almost eat up a entire 5k plus foot field in their new CC cubs, so let's not get too uppity here!

No shit. Grab a box of popcorn and a lawn chair and get yourself to Johnson Creek for the super cub weekend. About as good as going to the boat launch on July 4th.

Duplicate

Duplicate

Boy i"ll say. Those CC drivers (their not really pilots) are the worst.
Well except for maybe a cirrus drive, they probably take the cake. Let's just hope no one combines the two we'd end up with some kind of frankistein monster pilot ruin all our flyin's [/quote]

Good to have ya back Blu

I have been reading all of these posts and I want to make a comment or more realistically ask a question? Maybe things have changed in the last 45 years, but the protected traffic area around an uncontrolled airport begins at the 5 mile radius from the center of the landing surface. An airplane is not on a true final approach until he is within that 5 miles. Traffic within the traffic area in a landing position would have precedence over the reported final outside the traffic area. Yes, these rules change when the airport is under IFR conditions with the protected area expanded to include the fixes required to complete the approach.

Someone will correct me if I am in error.

Flying charter in a Cessna 421flying IFR even in VFR conditions, we were seldom able to cancel IFR until over the NDB to our home airport at 9 miles final to home airport. A 421 is an expensive airplane to fly and we would most often make a straight in to the runway. Local traffic was sparse and always had someone on the unicom. Seldom had to change the flight path for traffic other than change speed or a couple of s-turns. Now the 340 was a different story. I loved flying that airplane and almost always made a full approach with that one, much to the chagrin of my boss who was paying the bills.

Gene

Twofiveecho wrote:traffic area around an uncontrolled airport begins at the 5 mile radius from the center of the landing surface. An airplane is not on a true final approach until he is within that 5 miles.

Last line check I flew with a Fed was from Kotzebue to Noatak. That airport is northwest of Kotz, and the runway runs north & south. I angled in from the southeast, and then entered final at about 2 1/2 miles out, making my radio call at that time.

*On a side note, general aviation is pretty much non-existent up there, and the entire area northwest of Kotz is covered by 122.8, all airports. There is a pretty structured use of the frequency worked out over the years by all the Part 135 outfits, and everybody knows pretty much exactly where everyone else is, and pretty much knows exactly what they're doing at all times. There is no idle chatter on the freq, and if someone has a problem or needs help, all hands are there to help as they can. A sterile frequency saved more than one guy's butt over the years. When shit goes wrong, a quick call is often all that goes out.

Anyway, long story short... Fed and I discussed at length at what distance one should call final. His opinion was, and most of us used his thinking, that within three miles was prudent. Outside of that was too far out (unless in something moving really fast) and just liable to cause confusion for those closer in.

Gump

So, what do you folks do when you're flying a practice instrument approach to an uncontrolled field?

Nothing wrong with a long straight in approach in that context. In fact, it's the only way you can do a practice approach to minimums at most airports.

How about using something called common sense, communication, courtesy and LOOK OUT THE DANG WINDOWS.

MTV

Twofiveecho wrote:.. Maybe things have changed in the last 45 years, but the protected traffic area around an uncontrolled airport begins at the 5 mile radius from the center of the landing surface. An airplane is not on a true final approach until he is within that 5 miles.....

I've only been flying about 15 years, but I don't recall hearing about any "protected traffic area around an uncontrolled airport". Unless you're talking about the class E airspace around (some) airports which have an instrument approach, that takes effect when that field is in IFR conditions. Those seem to be 4nm radius size, plus usually a slot for the approach corridor.