Hey guys I'm doing my private license right now, part 141. It is getting paid for by my company, so who can complain? However I really feel like I am not getting the training I was hoping for with the intention of doing backcountry mountain flying.

For instance: We are not allowed to land on real grass fields, and the shortest field I've landed on is 2700 feet, despite requests to get both real soft field landings and shorter field landings.

Has anybody made the transition well from Part 141 to real world backcountry flying?

My dad got his private Part 61 and said practically every filght was to a small grass field, because that was what he wanted.

Thanks!

I think that's just sort of par for the course with 141 schools. They tend be be very structured and regimented, and probably won't cater to the specific interests of any particular student. I did my training Part 61, and while my instructor knew what I was interested in, we kind of just resolved to get the certificate done and focus on the PTS. BUT, he was very flexible in how accomplished the §61.109 items, and I got have fun with it.

I took a lot of dual after passing my checkride, and it was then that I got to have fun and fly taildraggers and do aerobatics and land on small dry lake beds. However, no one would rent me a plane and allow it to be landed off-pavement, whether for risk management or insurance coverage reasons, I dunno.

Although i can understand why you'd want to make the most of your employer's treat, I'd say don't sweat it. Just pass the checkride and then find someone who will teach you the stuff you're specifically interested in.

First off, times have changed. I don't know what part 141 is, but I got mine very structured, landing on 5000 ft runways. It was at Ohio State University in 1971. Total cost with ground school was $500 even. We had about 17-20 kids in our class, and as far as I know, everyone of us got our license with 38 hours TT.

Just get the license. Then learn.

For me, I went straight through to my instrument ticket, then rewarded myself with a tailwheel endorsement in a PA-12. In my opinion, sound decision making and knowing your limitations are just as important as flying skill (if not more important at times). That sound decision making and constant self assessment can be practiced in any environment, structured or not...just my two cents...

This has nothing to do with the FAR part the school is operating under. It has everything to do with liability. Whether you recognize it or not, schools are really hanging out there a loooonnnnnggggg ways when it comes to teaching someone's cute pink young un to fly. Further, MOST primary flight instructors don't have very much flight experience themselves, hence most schools try to make as many "runway choice" decisions as possible for the instructor/students, by restricting where and when they can operate.

From the flight instructor's perspective, remember that the instructor has to give him or herself enough breathing room on runway length to permit the student to screw up a little without harm to hardware or occupants. The key with a good instructor is not to intercede the instant the student does something wrong (or doesn't get something right) but waits to see if the student will catch and correct the error himself. That takes a little extra room, at least initially, and particularly with most primary students.

Don't be so impatient. The key is to develop good habits, and learn the basics. As I've told people in my off airport seminars, you can learn a very large percentage of the skills required to operate off airport or in the backcountry at an airport with a 12,000 foot runway. Work on the basics: Land precisely where you want to land, EVERY time, at the speed you've chosen for touchdown, again, every landing. Manage your traffic patterns precisely, develop an awareness of what's going on around you. Getting the basics of precision landings and precise speed and attitude control down pat will serve you well in ANY flight regime, anywhere, but those skills are vital in the backcountry.

Once you get that PPL, you will want to go fly with an instructor who is very familiar with backcountry ops, to start putting some of that precision to a bit finer test. Trust me, you DO NOT want to head into the backcountry or even a relatively short strip with most relatively new primary flight instructors.

Hang in there. Get the certificate, then go find some crusty old fart who can help you apply those precision skills to the places you really want to fly.

MTV

Well said Mike, I'm with the rest of you guys .... get the tickit done then get all your skills honed and then go work on your back country wings as you will need to be very much on the ball and not be other wise occupied trying to learn to fly your plane.

scm007 wrote:Hey guys I'm doing my private license right now, part 141. It is getting paid for by my company, so who can complain? However I really feel like I am not getting the training I was hoping for with the intention of doing backcountry mountain flying.

For instance: We are not allowed to land on real grass fields, and the shortest field I've landed on is 2700 feet, despite requests to get both real soft field landings and shorter field landings.

Has anybody made the transition well from Part 141 to real world backcountry flying?

My dad got his private Part 61 and said practically every filght was to a small grass field, because that was what he wanted.

Thanks!

Need to find another school - maybe go to central or eastern Oregon and work for crop duster to get your "training". Toooo many "pilot schools" don't have the balls to go off pavement with there students. I realize there wanting "auto mats" rather than PILOTS - most of the "school trained "pilots would NOT be qualified to start my airplane and taxi it to the runway-that goes for there cfi's too. I know Chuck West is down in Salem(Independence) Or. has CFI and 185. Summers he fly's Alaska backcountry-winters in Oregon.Don't know if he has another airplane he instructs in ?? Best you can hope for is get you "training" and buy you a "off pavement airplane" and fly it -lots. Keep in mind this is a major investment -like buying another house .

Keep in mind this is a major investment -like buying another house .[/quote]


Dont you mean, "Buying a house, is like buying another airplane. "

I started 61, finished 141 in a Diamond Katana, of all the unlikely airplanes for ever getting off airport. Five years later, I'm experienced enough to know that I am not even close to good yet at handling, much less pushing the performance limits, a PA-12 with tundra tires and the gentlest stalls I've ever flown. In another five or six hundred hours, I'll... probably have an even better appreciation for how much I have to learn!

First, get your license. Once you have your license, you can find anything out there and people to teach you how to fly it - just like getting your driver's license. For flying off-airport later, start practicing the skills you'll need now. It's a bad idea to start trying to learn precision landing on a scratch strip in the mountains, or figuring out your takeoff distance when the water's rising on a sandbar. Now, while you have plenty of runway and time, learn to plant the airplane exactly where you want it, every time. Vary this, too, once you get the hang of it - land on the numbers with the intent to do so one day, on the marker the next. Land on the centerline every time, so you know without a doubt you can put the plane on the best patch of dirt. Always but always land with the nose straight ahead - be on top of the rudder!

How long is it taking you to get off? When you're first learning, I expect you'll be concentrating on the taking off - but later on, remember taxiway lights are usually spaced 200 feet apart, and figure out what your actual performance is compared to book. If you're in something bigger than 2-place, talk your instructor into letting you ride in the back with another student - some things are easier to see when you're not overwhelmed with flying the plane. Return the favor by taking another student up with you, and see how the plane performs differently when loaded. Check your fuel carefully, and if you ever fly with quarter-tanks instead of full, note the difference in the plane's response. Go to airports of different lengths and widths, and test your ability to enter well, scan the area (where is the windsock? What does it say, no matter what the ASOS says?), fly a correct pattern and land well. Hone your short and soft field landings, no matter how long and paved the runway really is - the important part is that you have the skill, as that carries with you when you get to short and soft fields.

If your 141 has in-house mechanics, stop by and talk to them. Learn how to better take care of your airplane, and encourage them to grouse and warn you on how student pilots break planes. You'll learn as much from the A&P's about what not to do to the plane as you will from your CFI, and more often you'll learn why it's a bad idea. Take notes from your flights, your debriefs, and when you go home, review your flight and chair-fly it as it should be. Study up the next one and hone your checklist with practice - the ability to pay attention to details is never a bad thing. The next flight, ask questions and make sure you understand in a pre-flight brief before getting in the airplane. As a side benefit, not only will this make you more prepared for more interesting airfields, it'll also help you be a focused and thoughtful pilot, and progress more quickly through your training.

Dot_AK:

Very well said!

--Tony

I did mine Part 141. That was my choice as I wanted to get done as soon as possible because I had a plane waiting for me. I finished mine including my check ride in 38.5 hours and immediately started my tailwheel endorsement. finished that up in a week and started flying my Kitfox and felt comfortable enough within a couple months to make my first journey into Idaho. First landing was at Moose Creek which is like LAX for my Kitfox, then we flew up to Fish Lake which was also no problem. That was my introduction into backcountry and I had around 75 hours TT with 30 or so tailwheel. I was green (and still am) but I have actually become a little more timid about flying the backcountry as I have gained hours...I think that is because I have experienced more of the "less than fun" flights now and have gained a greater respect of what mother nature can do if she wants.

In short, I wouldn't worry about the school...find an old seasoned tailwheel instructor and he/she will teach you more than most flight school instructors can put together.