One of the problems of buying fuel at the pump is being able to trust what the octane label says. There are no cheap portable pocket home testing kits I know of but what about your state fuel standards. Is the state office doing its job if they don't make sure that sellers are delivering what they promise at the pump?
There should be a law....

http://triblive.com/news/2793271-74/oct ... z2F87uUB83


What's in your wallet (tank)?

I am 100 % sure most gas stations bait and switch the high test/ premium grade and substitute regular gas... They all know the testing equipment is VERY expensive and a portable one is even harder to use" in the field".. The stations know there is NO way they are gonna get caught, so the con runs rampant. .. If someone was to get creative and sample a bunch of late model cars/trucks with ECMs that have data storage capabilities, A in-depth examination of engine parameters would show octane rating of the fuel used by scanning the data.... ie.... They could corralate the thottle position sensor reading against the the MAF sensor and the OAT and then using a look up table , see what data the spark knock sensor was sending to the ECM.... If the data revealed a consistant retarding of the ignition timing where the factory default shows that using a higher octane fuel would give different readings then the only thing that would cause lesser performance of that given engine would be lower octane ratings on the fuel.... IMHO.

In Oregon the fuel is tested on a random regular basis And the octane is posted at the pump And if that is ever messed with your in big trouble, My cousin owns a gas station and gets tested on a regular basis.
They test the octane as well as make sure that his pump is calibrated and accurate

tcraft wrote:In Oregon the fuel is tested on a random regular basis And the octane is posted at the pump And if that is ever messed with your in big trouble, My cousin owns a gas station and gets tested on a regular basis.
They test the octane as well as make sure that his pump is calibrated and accurate

I understand the (weights and measurements) in regard to the flow and gallons delivered. They do that here in Wyming a few times a year.... On the octane measurement,,, Do they take a sample and go back to the lab for analysis or do it on site, real time ?

Stol, this is a serious accusation that fuel stations or the fuel blenders would dare to take all possible advantage where they think they can get away with it. I do have something to back you up though. Impossible to claim this as an accident. These victims don't exactly drive the latest tech vehicles that retard timing for anti knock.

http://www.azdwm.gov/Portals/1/NewsAler ... Sep07.html

Today the tests are portable with this tool but to my knowledge a few more than half the states require testing. Maybe caught in the old frame of mind that it is a time consuming lab test.

This is the portable tester or at least one type.

http://www.zeltex.com/portable/zx-101c.html

If you're able to sell a few tanks full of water-saturated gasoline, you're suddenly ahead in a resale game that counts pennies. My dad recently got a large amount of water from a fill up at a local station, enough to fill a mayonnaise jar.

When he called the station to report it, they couldn't have cared less and pretty much blew him off. It's profitable to sell water, and E10 or E15 makes that a lot easier to bulk up your volume.

Maybe that effectively increases octane though

Think about it we all fly airplanes we all have to drain our sumps the same thing applies to a 10,000 gallon tank they draw water too, I can't imagine a gas station owner actually dumping water in the gas tank we all know that stuff settles to the bottom Of the tank Just like our airplanes . Some gas stations that don't have a lot of traffic tend to have water in their tanks just due to lack of use same as or airplanes again.

tcraft wrote:Think about it we all fly airplanes we all have to drain our sumps the same thing applies to a 10,000 gallon tank they draw water too, I can't imagine a gas station owner actually dumping water in the gas tank we all know that stuff settles to the bottom Of the tank Just like our airplanes . Some gas stations that don't have a lot of traffic tend to have water in their tanks just due to lack of use same as or airplanes again.

The entire danger of ethanol stems from the fact that it holds water in suspension, or in solution, and doesn't let it separate except under certain atmospheric conditions. That's the heart of the debate for airplane operators and why we test for ethanol in mogas. It is certainly feasible for a crooked station owner to increase volume of E10 gasoline by mixing in water.

The consumer should have an approved method to substantiate the quality of the fuel he/she purchases. This part of the equation is still "black magic".

I'm not against alternative fuels, but QC for E whatever is a b$itch.

The whole point is we need to get beyond the buyer be ware stage of buying gas. This would include straight gas spiked with ethanol when it says its clear or 85 octane sold as 87 or 91. Mislabeling is consumer fraud no matter if it is water, ethanol, lower octane, or sugar free. I think a push on this front is achievable in every state for the safety of anyone buying. Maybe station owners should check or be checked for quality stated if they are going to sell a labelled product. Of course it does not take the place of a pilot testing for ethanol or anything else if it is used in an aircraft.

Slightly off topic but a local gas station doesn't label the pumps for ethanol. I talked to the manager and he said more people buy his gas if there is no "may contain ethanol" label. I thought there was a law requiring it but he said not in idaho and he will not label his pumps till he has to.

Sounds like a label from a third world country "MAY CONTAIN...."

The petroleum industry in the US is like Quantas Airlines in Australia, they own the place.

Oregon law states it must be posted on the pump and is tested regularly

whee wrote:Slightly off topic but a local gas station doesn't label the pumps for ethanol. I talked to the manager and he said more people buy his gas if there is no "may contain ethanol" label. I thought there was a law requiring it but he said not in idaho and he will not label his pumps till he has to.

He's breaking the labeling law, and he's also committing fraud.

Idaho Administrative Code 02.02.14, 350, 02
02.02.14 Rules for Weights and Measures
350 Sale and Labeling of Gasoline Which Contains Oxygenates
02. Pump Labeling Requirements.
a. All spark ignition engine fuel kept, offered, or exposed for sale, or sold, at retail containing at least
one percent (1%) by volume of any oxygenate or combination of oxygenates shall be identified as “with” or
“containing” (or similar wording) the specific type of oxygenate(s) in the engine fuel. For example, the label may
read “contains ethanol” or “with MTBE/ETBE.” This information shall be posted on the upper fifty percent (50%) of
the dispenser front panel in a position clear and conspicuous from the driver’s position, in a type at least one half (1/
2) inch in height, one-sixteenth (1/16) inch stroke (width of type).
b. The labels shall be furnished by the retail owner or operator.

kevbert wrote:

whee wrote:Slightly off topic but a local gas station doesn't label the pumps for ethanol. I talked to the manager and he said more people buy his gas if there is no "may contain ethanol" label. I thought there was a law requiring it but he said not in idaho and he will not label his pumps till he has to.

He's breaking the labeling law, and he's also committing fraud.

Idaho Administrative Code 02.02.14, 350, 02
02.02.14 Rules for Weights and Measures
350 Sale and Labeling of Gasoline Which Contains Oxygenates
02. Pump Labeling Requirements.
a. All spark ignition engine fuel kept, offered, or exposed for sale, or sold, at retail containing at least
one percent (1%) by volume of any oxygenate or combination of oxygenates shall be identified as “with” or
“containing” (or similar wording) the specific type of oxygenate(s) in the engine fuel. For example, the label may
read “contains ethanol” or “with MTBE/ETBE.” This information shall be posted on the upper fifty percent (50%) of
the dispenser front panel in a position clear and conspicuous from the driver’s position, in a type at least one half (1/
2) inch in height, one-sixteenth (1/16) inch stroke (width of type).
b. The labels shall be furnished by the retail owner or operator.

There are some amazingly informed people here. Good work!

We own a gas station, I find it hard to believe anyone got a large amount of water in a tank of fuel. The submersible pumps are quite a few inches off the bottom of the tank. Were all pilots here & sump our tanks before every flight because the H2O is heavier than fuel & sits in the bottom. You'd have to install some kind of continous agitation system to keep the water in suspension & allow it to be pumped. My reg no-lead tank has .75 inches of water in it, has since we opened in 1996. The bottom of the pump is over a foot of the bottom & therefore not an issue. There's a continous monitoring system that tells you volume, temp, water level ect. or they stick the tank on a daily basis. There's a water detecting paste you can put on the stick to find water. If you really think you got water id ask to see the tank report or contact your state Dept of weights & measures.

Our fuel supplier would not allow us to drop 87 in the prem tank, I guess there may be some unscrupulous fuel jobbers or store owners out there that might do that but I've not heard of it.

Our 87 & 89 have 'may contain' stickers, the premium is strait gas, not required to sell prem with ethanol. We've never had anyone complain that the fuel octane was low. Usually it's a genius putting 20 gallons in his cars '18 gallon tank' & accusing us of pump tampering. They call W&M & they come test it & find nothing. Tanks should be filled to 80% & if you keep clicking the nozzle your going to get more in than the designed full capacity. The old standard was +/- a specific tolerance for each pump. New state law is +/- same amount over all the gas pumps. So if one is +.1% another has to be -.1% (average)

Spoke with cousin who has station

Never had free water but, can't tell about the absorbed water?

Alcohol, from what is written, can hide a bunch of water in suspension? How do we know what precent water is in or not in suspension when transferring ethanol composite fuel?

And he said he has water block filters in place that would stop gas flow if water was pumped thru system

tcraft wrote:And he said he has water block filters in place that would stop gas flow if water was pumped thru system

If that works for water in suspension, I am sold! Good to go then?

I have "green mesh" which stops free water, but, did not know if it worked for absorbed water?