Pratt & Whitney R 4360 test run....Smoke On! Kindred, ND



Oh, yeah--and a little noisy, too.

MTV

Fantastic shot, the color is great. Have to love the old planes.

Beautiful! I can feel the HP through my computer screen.

Saw a Corsair,(also P51, F-18, A-10, Stearman, Sean Tucker, etal) do a nice aerobatic routine at the Tarkio, Missouri airshow last Saturday. Was GREAT!

Pat

Having looked at a cut away of this engine where you can see all the moving parts, I am always amazed that the crew chiefs kept them in the air most of the time.

The unsung heroes of air combat are the wrench jockeys who keep the iron in the air.

I was trying to figure out how many people it took to keep one naval aviator in the air. Figure with that floating airstrip the ratio of support vs pilot is pretty high.

Tom, True enough. But, it's my understanding that most of the Navy airplanes of WWII were pretty easy to keep flying. Not so with some of the Army Air Corps planes. In any case, these were never military airplanes, nor were they designed as such. The FG 2 was designed as a civil racing airplane.

The R-4360 soldiered on in a number of aircraft over the years, though, including "Old Shaky", the C-124. Imagine the time it'd take just to clean the spark plugs on a 28 cylinder engine?

MTV

mtv wrote: In any case, these were never military airplanes, nor were they designed as such. The FG 2 was designed as a civil racing airplane.

Actually Mike, the FG2 Super Corsair was indeed designed and built purposefully for the military…Pratt & Whitney touted the concept of mounting the R-4360 on a Corsair and making it a high speed kamikaze interceptor. The sales pitch was that they could be launched from the carrier, climb like a raped ape, and haul ass to intercept the aircraft before they got in range of the ships. There were a total of only 5 FG2 models that were ever built, of which only 4 are known to still exist although in reality we could should consider it to be only 3...(1) airframe was used as firefighter practice after it’s racing years (formerly Race #94) and the remains are buried in the ground beyond repair, (1) sits un-airworthy, but in original military configuration in the Museum of Flight in Seattle, and the remaining (2) are the famous racers reborn by Bob Odegaard and known as Race #57 (red & white) and Race #74 (blue & white).

The racing fame came from a fellow named Cook Cleland who originally purchased 4 of them from the Navy with the stipulation that only 3 could be used as racers…the fourth could only be used as parts. Two racers participated in the 1947 Cleveland races, one of which took 1st in the Tinnerman Trophy and 2nd in the Thompson Trophy. This racer was known as Race #94 and was used for firefighter practice after it was retired from racing. The second racer (Race #84) suffered a fatal crash and was beyond repair. Cook Cleland then “transferred” the registrations of the one that crashed and the one that was supposed to be used only for parts. The original “parts” aircraft “assumed the identity of Bu. 88457” and became the famous red & white Race #57 and went on to win 1st in the 1949 Tinnerman Trophy and 3rd in the Thompson Trophy while the crashed aircraft “assumed the identity of Bu. 88458” and became the “parts” plane. The fourth racer (Race #74) is the one currently being restored by Odegaard Aviation and was the winner of the 1948 Thompson Trophy. Race #74 was previously in the Walter Soplata Collection...Wally Soplata (Walter's son) is an old flying buddy.

Here is a link to Odegaard Aviation for more photos and info on the restoration.

mtv wrote:Tom, True enough. But, it's my understanding that most of the Navy airplanes of WWII were pretty easy to keep flying. Not so with some of the Army Air Corps planes.

Well, I can tell you this...I have some buddies that own both an F4U-5 and a P-51. The P-51 is more maintenance intensive (with regards to the engine) and costly than the Corsair, but the Corsair sucks down more fuel so the operating costs are comparable. The engine maintenance and overhaul cost on the Mustang are much more costly...a full overhaul on a Merlin can run in excess of $150,000 and will be required around the 800 - 1,000 hour mark depending on how she is run and what kind of banks are installed. The banks can require overhaul in about half that time (again depending on the type installed) and run in the neighborhood of $50,000. Compare this to the cost of a full overhaul and TBO on an R-2800...

Jr.CubBuilder wrote:
Sheeeeesh, and I tought my old beater C170 was expensive

Now you know why rides cost $1,500 for a half hour...

In general, big-picture terms, it can be said with some confidence that the Merlin engine was a major factor in winning the air war in Europe, by winning the Battle of Britain in Hurricanes and Spits, then getting P-51 flighter cover most of the way to the target and back for the bombers.

And it can likewise be said that the R-2800 was possibly the major factor in winning the air war in the Pacific, powering Hellcats and Corsairs. (and the Tigercat and Bearcat too if they weren't too late to have made a difference).

And the idea of using the 4360 to propel a six foot thick, tree-stump-blunt Corsair wing in a 450 mph dive to chase Kamikazes was just laughable then, and is still laughable in the unlimited race today. A thinner, sharper wing would have made it damn near trans-sonic in a dive with the stock 2800 engine. At the current unlimited race speeds, a Mustang airfoil (or better) cobbled onto the Corsair wing would make a much much larger speed difference than bolting on one of those corn-cob monster engines. Unlimited racers, despite their large wallets, have a pretty lowbrow Dukes of Hazzard hot-rodder mentality - it's always "get a bigger hammer" instead of "get a thinner nail". Now before you guys skewer me to death with poison darts, I love warbirds and old airplanes as much or more than anyone in this room.

EZFlap wrote:And the idea of using the 4360 to propel a six foot thick, tree-stump-blunt Corsair wing in a 450 mph dive to chase Kamikazes was just laughable then, and is still laughable in the unlimited race today. A thinner, sharper wing would have made it damn near trans-sonic in a dive with the stock 2800 engine.

Which is exactly why they only made 5 of them before discontinuing the project (along with some other flight characteristic problems). However, it was not the dive speed that they were after...it was the climb and level flight speed that they were after. The R-4360 power to weight ratio became (arguably) an exercise in diminishing returns which is why it never made it as a fighter engine.

Keep in mind though that there is more to an aircraft than just pure speed, although the Corsair is no slouch in this area either. My buddy flies both the P-51 (Excalibur) and the F4U-5 (WR) in aerobatic demonstrations fairly routinely and although he likes the Mustang, the Corsair is his hands down "pilot’s airplane" favorite between them. It is a two finger aircraft whereas the Mustang takes both hands on the stick to pull out of a dive or the backside of a loop…that says a lot when you are in combat. Another comparison to keep in mind is that he P-51 has a MGTOW only 2,000 lbs more than the Empty Weight of an F4U…it is a much larger aircraft AND has folding wings which require a bit more bulk in the airfoil. A Corsair is a big bird…as big as a King Air and capable of speed and MGTOW far exceeding it. Put enough horsepower on a grand piano and it will fly.

Both aircraft are legends in their own right and arguably the best fighters of all time. I have been blessed to have buddies that let me “tag along” with their warbird adventures and share in the history & operation of these flying history lessons. I wouldn’t kick either one out of the hangar…then again, I cannot even afford a hangar with a door tall enough to clear the prop.

And the're darn'd friendly when you get weathered at Kindred:

Welcoming committee, always a smile


Warm and dry


What that fire breather looked like after the last Fall Colors we had David for