Anyone have more information about this?
http://www.challismessenger.com/article ... lane-crash
"Downdraft" Downs 182 Near Mackay ID
Fri Mar 31, 2017 4:49 pm
- SixTwoLeemer offline
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Altitude is Time…. Airspeed is Life!
Fri Mar 31, 2017 7:55 pm
Re: "Downdraft" Downs 182 Near Mackay ID
News to me.
Some of the very biggest ranges in Idaho, so anything can happen I guess. It's been pretty dynamic weather wise, being spring time and all, I play around in that country a lot, but really choose my days. Glad it worked out for them, hope they got insurance. A decently written article also, not too dramatic anyway, just the facts, more or less.
Some of the very biggest ranges in Idaho, so anything can happen I guess. It's been pretty dynamic weather wise, being spring time and all, I play around in that country a lot, but really choose my days. Glad it worked out for them, hope they got insurance. A decently written article also, not too dramatic anyway, just the facts, more or less.
- courierguy offline
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"Its easier to apologize then ask permission"
Tex McClatchy
Tex McClatchy
Sat Apr 01, 2017 12:26 pm
Re: "Downdraft" Downs 182 Near Mackay ID
So if you do chose to walk away from the scene for whatever reason, what's the heads up thing to do?.
Protocol is for plane crash victims to remain at the scene of the crash to make it easier for rescuers to find them, Gregory, said, but apparently Bates and Jennings were feeling lucky after climbing out of their crashed plane with minor injuries.
Leave a note (or two)?
Stack up a bunch of rocks in the form of an arrow indicating direction of departure?
I see this as yet one more reason to get a ham radio license, and carry a small 5 watt+ handie talkie if only to make calls on simplex every 30 minutes on 144.52, which I think is the ham radio agreed upon 2 meter simplex frequency? I have not been on in years. Of course, if you can hit a ham radio repeater, you are gold.
Link for Licensure: http://www.arrl.org/getting-licensed
Sat Apr 01, 2017 12:52 pm
Re: "Downdraft" Downs 182 Near Mackay ID
...or a handheld VHF, or a sat phone.
Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:10 pm
Re: "Downdraft" Downs 182 Near Mackay ID
Seems like they did pretty well with a SPOT. With an InReach, they could have sent a text as well.
Frankly, you can wind up carrying so much junk around with you that it becomes a burden. Pretty soon, you're trying to remember to keep all those batteries charged, licenses and subscriptions up to date, etc.
Pick something that works in 90 percent of the country or more that you fly and go with that.
MTV
All's well that ends well.
Frankly, you can wind up carrying so much junk around with you that it becomes a burden. Pretty soon, you're trying to remember to keep all those batteries charged, licenses and subscriptions up to date, etc.
Pick something that works in 90 percent of the country or more that you fly and go with that.
MTV
All's well that ends well.
Sat Apr 01, 2017 5:03 pm
Re: "Downdraft" Downs 182 Near Mackay ID
Although it worked out for them, I don't think leaving the airplane was very wise. I've been in the Idaho backcountry enough to know that without a compass and map (or handheld GPS), it'd be pretty easy to get really lost.
If I were in that situation and felt a compelling need to leave the crash site, I'd be taking my handheld VHF and my PLB with me. I can't right now think of a compelling need, though.
Cary
If I were in that situation and felt a compelling need to leave the crash site, I'd be taking my handheld VHF and my PLB with me. I can't right now think of a compelling need, though.
Cary
"I have slipped the surly bonds of earth..., put out my hand and touched the face of God." J.G. Magee
Sat Apr 01, 2017 8:39 pm
Re: "Downdraft" Downs 182 Near Mackay ID
I'm glad that they didn't get killed. They were very fortunate. I think that with a Spot or In Reach, in addition to a 406 Mhz ELT, that if you survive the crash that you will be found pretty quickly. Especially if you are in the lower 48.
This is one nice service that spot offers: http://www.findmespot.com/en/index.php?cid=104
At 18 bucks a year, who wouldn't add this to their plan?
This is one nice service that spot offers: http://www.findmespot.com/en/index.php?cid=104
At 18 bucks a year, who wouldn't add this to their plan?
- Scolopax offline
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Sun Apr 02, 2017 12:35 am
Re: "Downdraft" Downs 182 Near Mackay ID
Hmm Don't see any, "......" in article.
53 C-170-B+
It is better to be late in this world, than early in the next.
It is better to be late in this world, than early in the next.
Sun Apr 02, 2017 10:20 am
Re: "Downdraft" Downs 182 Near Mackay ID
When mentioning the 2 meter ( 144 Mhz VHF ) ham radio handi talkies, it's not just about emergency communication. I also had in mind their additional ability to function for APRS.
For those on a budget, aside from the initial equipment, it is all free. No monthly fees.
Just a consideration for some. In addition to the 2 meter ham radio HT, I also have an old Icon IC-A20 aviation HT to cover av frequencies as a back up back up.
Here is just a short rehash of some of the many cool things APRS can do. Not implying it is what you should rely on in an emergency.
Link: http://www.g4ilo.com/aprs.html.
For those on a budget, aside from the initial equipment, it is all free. No monthly fees.
Just a consideration for some. In addition to the 2 meter ham radio HT, I also have an old Icon IC-A20 aviation HT to cover av frequencies as a back up back up.
Here is just a short rehash of some of the many cool things APRS can do. Not implying it is what you should rely on in an emergency.
Link: http://www.g4ilo.com/aprs.html.
Re walking away, I tend to agree with Cary. Stay put..
Uses of APRS
Thanks to the APRS network it is possible for a ham sat in his shack in Germany to follow the progress of a Summits On The Air activator as he hikes up a mountain in England. He can even see (if the activator has put this information into his beacon) the frequency he will be using. They could even exchange text messages if they wanted to. Using APRS it is theoretically possible for someone using a handheld transceiver in Sydney, Australia to send a text message to another ham buddy in New York, USA.
Another facility of APRS-IS is the ability to store objects. Objects are created using the client software and typically contain a geographical position of something such as a repeater or a clubhouse, together with free-text information about it such as the repeater frequency and access tone. Objects are displayed on a map by APRS client software running on a computer. They are also transmitted on RF periodically by IGates in the area so they may be received by mobiles within range. In this way, APRS can provide visitors to an area with information about what repeaters to use or where the hamfest is being held and the frequency of the talk-in station.
Sun Apr 02, 2017 10:37 am
Re: "Downdraft" Downs 182 Near Mackay ID
The SPOT device they had worked great. I would think they took it with them as they walked. The only downside is no two way communication to insure message had been received and help is on the way. I have a SPOT to let wife friends follow my flights but also carry a sat phone incase I want to check weather or have other issues. If you only have a single unit the INREACH would be the best because you can confirm help is coming or just send message to bring prop when that is all you need to get home. 
As far as walking out, Several factors involved. Did they have proper gear for walking out? Did they have the right stuff to stay put? If they knew the country and could see road/trail, looks like farm only 4 mi away. 4 miles in wet snow is like a running a marathon, dry ground downhill, easy day.
Don't fly up valleys unless you know how to turn around. The good thing to see is they flew it all the way down!!!!!!
DENNY
As far as walking out, Several factors involved. Did they have proper gear for walking out? Did they have the right stuff to stay put? If they knew the country and could see road/trail, looks like farm only 4 mi away. 4 miles in wet snow is like a running a marathon, dry ground downhill, easy day.
Don't fly up valleys unless you know how to turn around. The good thing to see is they flew it all the way down!!!!!!
DENNY
DENNY
Sun Apr 02, 2017 11:17 am
Re: "Downdraft" Downs 182 Near Mackay ID
Without knowing we cannot say. When pilots say, "the downdraft got him, " my mind automatically asks, "where was the wind management? Why wasn't the updraft on the other side of the valley taking him up? Why was he trying to go up drainage on the upwind side of the valley under the down air off the upwind ridge forming that side of the valley?"
Yes, he did a good job flying all the way to the crash site.
Yes, he did a good job flying all the way to the crash site.
- contactflying offline
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Sun Apr 02, 2017 2:53 pm
Re: "Downdraft" Downs 182 Near Mackay ID
I agree that without more, it's only speculative. But whenever I hear something like "the downdraft got me", it always seems to involve excessively low flying without much planning and without looking much past the spinner. I've spoken to several pilots who survived crashes, and others who had really close calls, who used variations of that line, but upon further discussion, it wasn't so much the downdraft but the lack of planning that got them. Things like flying up into a canyon, without knowing what's around the bend; or flying low during excessive winds; or not paying attention to altitude while looking at something on the ground; and on and on.
In my admittedly somewhat limited canyon flying experience over the last several years, I've learned not to rely on the air lifting the airplane out of trouble. Best to not get into trouble in the first place.
Cary
In my admittedly somewhat limited canyon flying experience over the last several years, I've learned not to rely on the air lifting the airplane out of trouble. Best to not get into trouble in the first place.
Cary
"I have slipped the surly bonds of earth..., put out my hand and touched the face of God." J.G. Magee
Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:39 am
Re: "Downdraft" Downs 182 Near Mackay ID
FWIW: one of the premier hang gliding sites in the country is pretty near Mackay. Lot's of lift on the "right" side of the valley in other words. Not so much on the "wrong" side. I have not bothered to look up exactly where it happened, it may be presumptuous but as soon as I heard about it I pretty much figured out what happened. This is NOT meant to critique or fault the pilot. But I'd bet dollars to donuts the PIC has no soaring experience, just saying. It's been 40 years since I transitioned out of hang gliding into powered flight, but damn the 576 hours of mountain flying I got in still pays off today for me in how (and where, and when) I currently fly.
Most of the valley has good cell coverage nowadays, better then ever before anyway.
Most of the valley has good cell coverage nowadays, better then ever before anyway.
- courierguy offline
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"Its easier to apologize then ask permission"
Tex McClatchy
Tex McClatchy
Mon Apr 03, 2017 6:29 am
Re: "Downdraft" Downs 182 Near Mackay ID
Cary wrote:Although it worked out for them, I don't think leaving the airplane was very wise. I've been in the Idaho backcountry enough to know that without a compass and map (or handheld GPS), it'd be pretty easy to get really lost.
If I were in that situation and felt a compelling need to leave the crash site, I'd be taking my handheld VHF and my PLB with me. I can't right now think of a compelling need, though.
Cary
They were 7.5 from help.
Why not walk if able???
Sounds better than sitting in the cold waiting for someone to find them.
Also looks like they had no way of knowing whether anyone even knew they were down at the time.
If they were 25-100 miles out it might be a different decision though.
Keep the Greasy side down!
Mon Apr 03, 2017 6:34 am
Re: "Downdraft" Downs 182 Near Mackay ID
I think without knowing the gentlemen who were involved in this accident, it's a bit premature to suggest that they were foolish for trying to walk out.
I've known guys who would happily walk from there to Boise, and enjoy the trip......they have those kinds of wilderness skills, and are in fantastic shape.
Then again, they may in fact have been fools, and didn't have a clue what they were doing.
But, without knowing what their skills/knowledge is, I sure wouldn't call them foolish for walking out.
Me, I'd probably have turned on the ELT, InReach, etc, built a nice fire and a shelter, and kicked back awaiting the arrival of the Mounties. But, that's not everyone's gig. Good for them, it worked out just fine.
MTV
I've known guys who would happily walk from there to Boise, and enjoy the trip......they have those kinds of wilderness skills, and are in fantastic shape.
Then again, they may in fact have been fools, and didn't have a clue what they were doing.
But, without knowing what their skills/knowledge is, I sure wouldn't call them foolish for walking out.
Me, I'd probably have turned on the ELT, InReach, etc, built a nice fire and a shelter, and kicked back awaiting the arrival of the Mounties. But, that's not everyone's gig. Good for them, it worked out just fine.
MTV
Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:47 am
Re: "Downdraft" Downs 182 Near Mackay ID
Maybe it's a better idea to stay with the airplane -- maybe not.
Remember the Steve Fossett crash Sept 3, 2007?
http://www.planeandpilotmag.com/article ... OJ7RoWcHIU
From that article: "The NTSB says the probable cause of the 2007 crash of adventurer Steve Fossett was an inadvertent encounter with downdrafts above mountainous terrain that exceeded the climb capability of the Bellanca Super Decathlon he was flying. Downdrafts, high-density altitude and mountainous terrain were all contributing factors."
and "....When the airplane hadn’t returned by 11:30, the chief pilot became concerned. An extensive search was conducted. The Civil Air Patrol suspended its search on October 2, 2007. "
A hiker found the wreckage a year later, subsequent searching turned up personal effects and human remains.
Remember the Steve Fossett crash Sept 3, 2007?
http://www.planeandpilotmag.com/article ... OJ7RoWcHIU
From that article: "The NTSB says the probable cause of the 2007 crash of adventurer Steve Fossett was an inadvertent encounter with downdrafts above mountainous terrain that exceeded the climb capability of the Bellanca Super Decathlon he was flying. Downdrafts, high-density altitude and mountainous terrain were all contributing factors."
and "....When the airplane hadn’t returned by 11:30, the chief pilot became concerned. An extensive search was conducted. The Civil Air Patrol suspended its search on October 2, 2007. "
A hiker found the wreckage a year later, subsequent searching turned up personal effects and human remains.
Cessna Skywagon -- accept no substitute!
Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:52 am
Re: "Downdraft" Downs 182 Near Mackay ID
courierguy wrote:FWIW: one of the premier hang gliding sites in the country is pretty near Mackay.
I've been left nearly breathless hang gliding in the area getting rocketed around in the spring, when lapse rates are all over the map with the changeable weather. Remarkable place to fly, great in the morning start up and the glass off, but not worth the underwear twirlies on days when you are getting pounded at the ridge top altitudes.
Tue Apr 04, 2017 7:55 pm
Re: "Downdraft" Downs 182 Near Mackay ID
At the Big Southern Butte, the ridge lift can be so strong your wires "twang" when your nose man lets go, and your socks get pulled down around your ankles!. Yeah, big mountains and big lift, for sure.
Sparky's demise still bothers me......
Sparky's demise still bothers me......
- courierguy offline
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"Its easier to apologize then ask permission"
Tex McClatchy
Tex McClatchy
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