OK, so I when I flew for the Air Force the name of the game was not getting burned in a crash or in flight fire. The jets were old and had lots of juice running through them so that was the big threat. I was always glad to have my nomex gloves, flight suit, etc.

Now that I'm flying GA here in Alaska, it seems that there are two schools of thought on "dressing to egress". I'm pretty spooked about getting burned still so I dress accordingly with as much nomex as I can. On top of that I have my inflatable survival vest packed with strobe, food, flares, water, etc.

Some of the other guys dress in as much synthetic as possible on the idea that they will dry off faster if they get wet. Their theory is that there just isn't that much fuel onboard a small aircraft to make a real threat of fire and they'd rather dress for the elements.

I think they have a point but I'm torn. I don't want to spend my life in a burn unit getting plastic peeled off my skin. What's your take?

Dress for the most likely scenario. In Alaska, how many people have gotten burnt up versus how many have been stuck in the outdoors, after the crash, forced landing, or whatever?

I can introduce you to at least one, and one look at him will convince you.

Look around on line for some of the newest generation "multi purpose" gear. Nomex long johns don't cost any more than the super duper plastic stuff, and in many cases, the fire resistant stuff actually wicks about as good as the plastic stuff.

Take a look at http://www.massif.com/

Their long johns, for example, wick really well. I haven't tried their overgear, but I've heard good things about it.

Point is, you can do both, reasonably well. I've used Nomex long underwear for years, and I perspire heavily. I like the stuff.

MTV

also try these for fire and weather protection

dragonfur.com

after seeing my synthetic fleece melt in fire, all my fuzzies are now nomex fleece. and I second the MTV suggestion on Massiff.

GR

govliquidation.com is an auction site that disposes of govt surplus.

I occasionally see flyers jackets and flyers coveralls that are made of aramid (generic name for nomex) go for cheap.

The problem...there are often 20 to 100 sets of clothing in one lot, with a minimum bid of $150 for the lot. So, some surplus store is probably getting them for two or three dollars apiece, then marking them up to $50.

If you want to see their current auctions for this type of clothing, enter "flyer" as the keyword, leave state as "any state", leave the manufacturer blank, then click go.

Would it be logistically possible to get some sort of bc group buy on these?

I don't own any Nomex, but I do own enough wool underwear that I can always wear a complete layer of it next to my skin, including liner gloves, balaclava, and socks. I know it probably doesn't perform as well as Nomex in a fire, but it sure doesn't melt all over you like capilene and polypro, and it does insulate decently when wet.

When I volunteered for moose survey observation this fall, they didn't require observers to be fitted with Nomex, but they did strongly encourage wool instead of synthetic. If you haven't shopped for any lately, it's spendy, but it's also gotten quite nice: Ibex, Icebreaker, Smartwool, Patagonia, REI, LL Bean- they've all gotten on the wagon.

Speaking of the horrors of synthetic: I heard a first-hand account recently of a responder who was dispatched to a fire victim out by McGrath. The victim was wearing nylon-faced Carhartt Extreme coveralls. The responder ended up sustaining significant lung damage from working over the smoldering coveralls of the victim. I've got a pair of those bibs that I pretty much live in during the cold times- they are plenty warm as is- no need to set them on fire for added comfort

-DP

I have all the layers of massiff stuff and love it. Middle layer is my favorite, but I think it wicks least. I have some excess with me here. PM me and if size works, I'll send you some to try out.

Brett

I went and grabbed my issue long johns and sure enough they were labeled "aramid". I never knew what that meant. I'll keep using those until I can afford some massif or dragonfur.

I did pass on the info to my buddy that occasionally has the pleasure of busting meth labs. He was pimping me for a used flight suit to wear under his plastic suit in case of a flash fire.

I just remember the guys who wore their flight suits to survival school getting wet and staying wet. Hopefully made into a fleece material it dries faster. Either way it's better than spending your days having plastic chunks removed from your skin.

I would second the recommendation for wool, at least for winter survival gear. It will slowly smolder, but it doesn't burn real well, and it was the first super fabric. I live in wool pants and wool coat all winter, breaths great, drys out fast, and in a damp snow environment (versus dry snow) I don't think it can be beat for warmth and moisture wicking. C.C. Filson is the best, are incredibly well made, and have tighter knit to the wool than other brands I've owned. But it is $$$$sive. Personally I think its worth it comparted to Woolrich, etc. Filson is incredible about standing by their products too. One other thing regarding footgear, in the summer I always wear good leather boots. I figure the firewall might be the hottest place if and engine fire breaks out, and you'll want to keep your feet on the pedals. And if you need to walk out, you'll be glad you have good boots on your feet instead flip flops I see have the seaplane pilots around here wearing in the summer.

Ryppa,

Good advice on wool and leather boots. It's getting harder to find all leather boots.

I petitioned Interior to allow me to wear Bunny Boots (Bata vapor barrier boots) in winter, for survival reasons, and they permitted it.

Bunny boots are waaaaayyyyyy better for winter wear than any leather boot. Your feet will always be damp and cool, but they'll never freeze.

In summer, on floats, I always wear hip boots. Having flown in many areas where leeches are quite common, Hip boots seem like a small price to pay.... Also, if you have to walk out of a swamp.....

You're right on Filson stuff, but as you say, it is incredibly expensive stuff. The good news is you can't wear the stuff out.

MTV

My wife and I have been wearing Massif for three or four years, including this morning flying Huskies in UT. While I have never had either Massif jacket on in a fire, it works as a warmth and layering garment. I am not as fond of their pants, and we typically combine wool pants and long underwear with the Massif pile jackets.

For warmer/dryer conditions, like UT and ID, Carhartt is now making fire resistant shirts and pants, and 5.11 makes their FBI pants in a fire resistant material.

I just received my new AF flight approved combat boots from Belleville. They're the model 690. I wore the 700s before the uniform changed and loved 'em. They're gore-tex and pass the AF flight boot standards.

It amazes me how little some guys fly with in the way of survival gear. These guys just get off work and jump in the airplane still wearing their work shoes and slacks. I know I'm a little obsessive about survival, but geez, it's Alaska in the winter. You could atleast try to be prepared. Just off the top of my head, I carry:

Inflatable survival vest
Knife
Leatherman
Parachord
Flares
Strobe
Phone
Signal mirror
Survival rations and water packs
Sparker
Flashlight
Headlamp
2 GPS units
First Aid Kit
Sleeping bag
Snowshoes
Small composite hatchet
And probably a few things I'm forgetting

There's a guy at the aero club who's been in two crashes and I asked him, what the one thing he wished he'd had was. He recommended the hatchet, which I thought at first was excessive. He said it came in real handy for getting a fire going, building shelter. etc. I figured that a small lightweight one wasn't that big of a deal and picked one up for cheap at Sportsmans Warehouse.

Fortunately we have the room in the airplanes and it isn't a big deal to throw it all in a bag or the vest and go.

mtv wrote: ...........
In summer, on floats, I always wear hip boots. .............

What are those good brown boots ("Ketchikan sneakers") that everybody in southeast wears? Evertough? Extratuff?
They seem like far & away the best rubber boots I've seen. Here in the Pacific Northwet (not a typo!), they'd be a natural but it seems like hardly anybody sells them.

Eric

Tick wrote:I just received my new AF flight approved combat boots from Belleville. They're the model 690. I wore the 700s before the uniform changed and loved 'em. They're gore-tex and pass the AF flight boot standards.

It amazes me how little some guys fly with in the way of survival gear. These guys just get off work and jump in the airplane still wearing their work shoes and slacks. I know I'm a little obsessive about survival, but geez, it's Alaska in the winter. You could atleast try to be prepared. Just off the top of my head, I carry:

Inflatable survival vest
Knife
Leatherman
Parachord
Flares
Strobe
Phone
Signal mirror
Survival rations and water packs
Sparker
Flashlight
Headlamp
2 GPS units
First Aid Kit
Sleeping bag
Snowshoes
Small composite hatchet
And probably a few things I'm forgetting

There's a guy at the aero club who's been in two crashes and I asked him, what the one thing he wished he'd had was. He recommended the hatchet, which I thought at first was excessive. He said it came in real handy for getting a fire going, building shelter. etc. I figured that a small lightweight one wasn't that big of a deal and picked one up for cheap at Sportsmans Warehouse.

Fortunately we have the room in the airplanes and it isn't a big deal to throw it all in a bag or the vest and go.

A pilot friend suggested I drop by your forum and see if I could be of service WRT survival related stuff. This seems to be a good spot to jump in.

One thing missing from you list is a 406 MHz PLB, I realize that most of you probably already fly with one, perhaps that is considered a given, but I met enough backcountry/bush pilots who don't at a recent IANRP event that I spoke at to not take that for granted.

WRT to the hatchet/axe, I am not a huge fan of either and include them in kits I assemble for clients only on special request. Not because they aren't handy as all get out, they can be. My concern is safety and I have seen too many serious injuries using these tools. The danger, IMO, is compounded in a situation where you may be injured, tired and not thinking or operating 100% clearly. It's not necessarily the same as using them in normal circumstances. They also weight quite a bit, a concern for a lot of my clients. I include and recommend a good locking blade folding saw and find that very nearly as useful, more efficient in many circumstances and less likely to cause injury. YMMV.

Hope I haven't stepped on too many toes for a first post.

Doug, I'm a regular visitor to your site and have absolutely POURED over the ditching articles. Really good site and was recommended to me by the Air Force SERE instructors. I've recommended your site to countless friends.

I'd love a PLB and I'm hoping to slowly put the money together for one. It's my next buy for survival equipment. All the stuff in my vest does me no good unless someone else knows I need help. Unfortunately, a PLB is a little out of reach at the moment.

I'm honored to speak with you. Please jump in at any time.

Tick wrote:Doug, I'm a regular visitor to your site and have absolutely POURED over the ditching articles. Really good site and was recommended to me by the Air Force SERE instructors. I've recommended your site to countless friends.

I'd love a PLB and I'm hoping to slowly put the money together for one. It's my next buy for survival equipment. All the stuff in my vest does me no good unless someone else knows I need help. Unfortunately, a PLB is a little out of reach at the moment.

I'm honored to speak with you. Please jump in at any time.

Thank you for the compliments! And, you nailed the real critical issue, from my POV.

WRT to the cost of a PLB, they have come down some in price, you can find them for less than $600 these days, some as low as $500-ish. Note for bargain seekers, the ACR ResQFix is identical for all practical purposes with the ACR MicrOFix ind is often available for less. The maritime community seem willing to take a very short mark-up on gear, sometimes to our advantage. The new GME GPS PLB is also less expensive. I personally carry a MicrOFix. And. yes, I paid for mine, just like you have to. <g> Personally, I'd take out a loan rather than fly without one, even more now that 121.5 satellite alerting is gone. The ELT, unless it's been upgraded to 406, is even more useless now. And, I might as well start with my mantra here, the ELT is back-up to the PLB, not the other way around™.

BTW, new versions of the MicroFix on the way: http://www.equipped.org/blog/?p=104

hotrod150 wrote:What are those good brown boots ("Ketchikan sneakers") that everybody in southeast wears? Evertough? Extratuff?
They seem like far & away the best rubber boots I've seen. Here in the Pacific Northwet (not a typo!), they'd be a natural but it seems like hardly anybody sells them.

Eric

It's spelled XtraTuf (aka Sitka Slippers). They're fine- they still blow out if you wear them constantly. Nothing very fireproof about them, except that they are probably waterlogged if you're wearing them in Southeast.

mtv wrote:Ryppa,

Good advice on wool and leather boots. It's getting harder to find all leather boots.

I petitioned Interior to allow me to wear Bunny Boots (Bata vapor barrier boots) in winter, for survival reasons, and they permitted it.

Bunny boots are waaaaayyyyyy better for winter wear than any leather boot. Your feet will always be damp and cool, but they'll never freeze.

I agree with you on VB boots, MTV (along with most everybody that's put in a few winters in Fairbanks, I'd wager). You can bust through overflow ice and fill them with ice water at -20F, and pour them out, change socks, and still have toes when you get home.

I've put in a plug for Steger mukluks here before, and it seems relevant to this thread too. I find them far more comfortable than bunny boots, much lighter, with excellent feeling through the soles for rudder work. They come in a range of styles and warmth ratings. I wear the Yukon Jack model from October through April. The lower portion is moosehide, and the liners are felted wool.

I used to wear my White's pac boots to fly, but the ankle was very stiff, and the speed lace hooks would scratch the side of the cowl when I'd climb up to fuel. Stegers fit like a glove, are plenty warm, feel like slippers on your feet, and don't scratch anything.

About three years ago the USFS approved the La Sportiva Makalu line of heavy-duty hiking boots for use by smokejumper and hotshot crews. Previously it had to be Whites. Both are good boots in their own right, but personally I have trouble flying and landing a taildragger wheelplane with boots that have that stiff of an ankle and midsole.

-DP

denalipilot wrote:flying and landing a taildragger wheelplane with boots that have that stiff of an ankle and midsole.

I have the same problem even with boots that aren't very stiff...perhaps more of a problem for me because I have heel brakes? I really think wearing leather boots is important when flying but I can't do it...maybe I'll give it another try, last time was an adventure

Practice, guys... I used to think that with regard to the stiffest boots made, the aforementioned Bata Vapor Barrier boots. Till I met one of the best helicopter pilots around, who was in the process of working an animal capture project, while wearing bunny boots.... Later met another helicopter pilot, who also flies a Cub a LOT working, and also wears bunny boots.

Just takes a little practice.

Doug, good to see you post here. My feelings precisely on the axe/hatchet. Get really dehydrated, take a whack at a frozen chunk of firewood, and now you have a major bleed to deal with. The USAF Cold Weather Survival School at Eielson, when I went there, would not permit you to go into the field with an axe or hatchet for this very reason. They had field tested the concept.....

This has been the winter up here.....thinking about AZ a lot lately

MTV