Ethanol production has taken acres out of food production

Where did this happen? I did read where in northern Laos they planted rubber trees to replace their rice fields. As China booms with all the money we're sending over, they need rubber for all the cars and other things they make. The people of Laos decided rubber was where the money is going to be. This is one small example and why I'm glad I invested locally(ethanol) and my dollars get turned over many times within USA, not exported to a foreign country.

But we digress...Thanks, N1593Y, for fighting the good fight! When I lived on the east coast there were still a couple of fields that had (STC compatible) mogas available and I always worked them into my route of flight. I'd love to see that option somewhere here on the west coast.

I'll try an let this be my last off topic post also. Doesn't look like people should be starving from lack of wheat except maybe transportation costs.

- DTN Headline News
Kub's Den: Wheat
By Elaine Kub
6/3/08 10:40 AM

An e-mail I received Monday evening read, "Wheat harvest in southwest Oklahoma is in full swing. The elevators in Frederick and Hollister are full, and harvest isn't even close to being over. Snyder, Okla., has a four-hour wait to unload and one elevator is full and harvest is just starting."

Doesn't your heart just skip a beat reading that? It's on! The full bounty of grain that Earth has produced for America this year is just starting to be reaped, and I like to think that if we could look down on the planet from the shuttle Discovery right now, we could see the clouds of dust and chaff rising off the Southern Plains.

I'm happy to say that wheat producers this year have some interesting and generally favorable pricing opportunities (though obviously not as favorable as they did three months ago). Across the board, more wheat is being grown this year than last, yet even soft red winter wheat, the class of wheat with the most bearish fundamentals, has futures priced more than $2 per bushel higher than they were a year ago. Here's the rub, though: The actual cash bids for soft red winter wheat are only $1 higher, on average, than they were in June 2007.

Why the big difference between the price futures traders are paying and the price cash buyers are paying? It's a bit of a mystery and goes against conventional market wisdom, which suggests if one market is overpriced in relation to another, they will eventually snap back to fair valuations. Of course, this could still happen.

Guys, It isn't going to do much good to bitch. I don't agree with the way it is either but I do know I am going to do all I can to be able to run gas with ethanol in the plane I am building. Ethanol is here to stay for the forseeable future and if I need to use it in able to fly...well, so be it.

Keith

WWhunter wrote:Guys, It isn't going to do much good to bitch. Keith

Bitching is part of the solution. Just ask my wife.

Rob,
I wonder if our wives are related? ROTFLMAO!!!

180Marty wrote:All it would take to make 10% ethanol work is the swipe of a pen to make it legal by the FAA--it doesn't take any modification to most planes that can use car gas. I feel pretty confident about that statement.

Marty
Your confidence in that statement is unfounded. If you're an EAA member you can read all their test data on their Web site. My EAA autofuel STC allows for every single additive allowed in the US, EXCEPT Alcohol of any kind. It even allows the use of 82UL, which has no additives.

The problems they found with alcohol blends are all related to it's affinity for water.

1. The alcohol holds water in suspension in the fuel so that it can't be detected, or drained out of the sumps.

2. When the temperature drops, such as during a climb to altitude, the water can suddenly come out of suspension and cause an engine failure. Cars rarely gain 5,000ft altitude in a matter of minutes.

3. If too much water bonded alcohol is present it dramatically lowers the effective octane. They cite an accident report where a float plane refueled at a marina that had been adding Heet to it's tanks instead of draining the water. The aircraft experienced severe detonation shortly after take-off, resulting it holes through all 4 pistons and a fatal crash. Modern cars have knock (detonation) sensors that automatically retard the timing.

The EAA STC does allow up to 1% alcohol, as the above problems didn't start showing up till they reached about 5% alcohol.

Yes, it is possible to safely run alcohol blends in our planes, or even ethanol based fuels. However, it will require storing the fuel in hermetically sealed tanks until used, and draining our tanks after each flight and disposing of the now exposed fuel. We'd also need the flexible, automatic electronic engine controls that cars now have to really make it practical.

Phil

For some years I have been afflicted with the belief that flight is possible to man. My disease has increased in severity, and I feel that it will cost me an increased amount of money if not my life.

Wilbur Wright
March, 1900

Some things never change...

Hey anticub, how do you explain the fact that Texas Skyways has an STC for 85 % ethanol that the FAA gave out for 180's and 182's. No change to airframe. Give them a call. I spent an hour on the phone with them about 9 month ago.

http://www.age85.org/ProjectDescription.htm

http://www.americasflyways.com/apr06story.html

also a good reed.

If 85% is ok as per the FAA then what would be wrong with 10%. I am not in favor of the Ethanol push by government but let us choose.

Tim

Tim
Thanks, I'll take a look at that. I don't explain it. I'm just repeating what EAA discovered in their testing. And as I said, it's certainly possible, just takes some extra care to prevent exposure to water. Extra care that your typical auto filling station doesn't take.

Phil

It appears that northern Idaho is now under the ethanol shadow. I believe that all stations will now have ethanol.

The threats and concerns of ethanol remind me of the similar things said when auto fuel was first proposed.

None of us have, of course, used ethanol since it is not legal. Does anyone know of anyone that has used ethanol without modifications and what the results were? I realize they were just acquaintances and you cannot remember their names.

flyer

Here you go:

http://www.eaa.org/autofuel/autogas/articles/

These guys did thousands of hours of testing with all sorts of auto fuel additives. Several people here keep saying the FAA is banning ethanol, when the Autofuel STC developers are the ones that actually mandated that.

Phil

flyer wrote:>... None of us have, of course, used ethanol since it is not legal. Does anyone know of anyone that has used ethanol without modifications and what the results were? I realize they were just acquaintances and you cannot remember their names.
flyer

Here is one who used ethanol, admittedly without knowing it: http://www.vansairforce.com/community/s ... hp?t=29994

What I don't understand is why anyone would go to any length to use a fuel that has less energy than gasoline, resulting in less range and power, unless there are serious modifications to the entire engine/fuel system, especially when they don't have to. Unleaded fuel without ethanol is available now, any commercial fuel operation on an airport can order it, even in Oregon, a mandatory E10 state.

It is Idaho that is in trouble. Without a mandatory E10 law, it has no exceptions for self fueling aircraft. All four of the mandatory E10 states have exceptions for aviation. You don't have to buy gasoline with ethanol in it for your airplane. Ethanol is injected at the terminal, which means the terminals have clear gasoline coming in which they can distribute. A commercial operation on an airport can order gasoline to ASTM D 4814 without ethanol. It is an FAA approved aviation gasoline, as specified in the EAA and Petersen STCs. No state can interfere with a commercial contract for aviation fuel, it is a Federal matter. This is why no state with a mandatory E10 law can require ethanol in 100 LL avgas. (One state tried, they lost.)

Montana is interesting. It has passed a mandatory E10 law, with the blanket exception of premium unleaded which will protect aviation, but the law hasn't triggered and probably never will. But E10 will sweep across Montana. Will the exception protect aviation use if the law never triggers?

In those states without mandatory E10 laws, you should be contacting your state legislators and ask them to require that any gasoline pump that is pumping ethanol be labeled properly and accurately and that premium unleaded gasoline be exempt from ethanol blending, or at the least the base stock for blending premium unleaded E10 be 91 AKI unleaded, so you can order it from the terminal.

AntiCub wrote

Extra care that your typical auto filling station doesn't take

I was talking to a man the other day that is a major ethanol plant investor about how I know someone that has used 10% for 18 months in a early bladder equipped Cessna with an O 470 with good results. This guy also has a fuel distribution business and convenience store. I was saying that the only thing I can see that a crooked gas station could do is to add a little water just before the transport shows up with a new 8500 gallon load of 10%. His response was that anybody that tried that would be out of business shortly for being so stupid---automobiles probably wouldn't run good either.

180Marty

Are you a farmer in Iowa? Do you grow corn?

Just curious.

flyer

flyer, Yes I'm a farmer. I raise corn, soybeans, and for the first time,this year wheat. When I read how everyone is switching to corn from wheat I am amused since there was more wheat produced on more acres last year than the year before. Also, I can't figure out how people think that the Air Force and the Navy operating in the Middle East, to make sure the oil keeps flowing, is free.

180Marty wrote:I know someone that has used 10% for 18 months in a early bladder equipped Cessna with an O 470 with good results. This guy also has a fuel distribution business and convenience store. I was saying that the only thing I can see that a crooked gas station could do is to add a little water just before the transport shows up with a new 8500 gallon load of 10%. His response was that anybody that tried that would be out of business shortly for being so stupid---automobiles probably wouldn't run good either.

I think I know this guy. Also it is a bit of a stretch to think that a fuel distributor is going to be adding water to his bulk. An FBO could also add a gallon or two of local car gas with Eth into his 100LL for extra profit. Conspiracy guys get off the "Grassy Knoll". If you have not heard of the Grassy Knoll, you are to young.

Tim

Marty does have a broader knowledge of ethanol facts because (correct me if I'm wrong Marty) he is part owner in an ethanol refinement operation.

180Marty wrote:AntiCub wrote

Extra care that your typical auto filling station doesn't take

I was talking to a man the other day that is a major ethanol plant investor about how I know someone that has used 10% for 18 months in a early bladder equipped Cessna with an O 470 with good results. This guy also has a fuel distribution business and convenience store. I was saying that the only thing I can see that a crooked gas station could do is to add a little water just before the transport shows up with a new 8500 gallon load of 10%. His response was that anybody that tried that would be out of business shortly for being so stupid---automobiles probably wouldn't run good either.

They wouldn't have to add water, it gets in there on it's own. I worked for a filling station while going to collage. One of my nightly duties was to dip the storage tanks. We had a paste we'd put on the end of the stick that changed color when it came into contact with water. If there was more than 3" of water in the tank we had to call the distributer and have him come pump it out. I had one night that I found over a foot of water in one tank. It had been a wet week and aparently the cap in the recessed filling well hadn't been secured properly (I couldn't check the other 2 tanks that night, their filling wells were full of water up over the cap). If that had been ethanol blended fuel we'd have never known.

Filling station tanks are all vented, just like the tanks in our planes. And just like our planes, condensation from atomospheric water gets into them. I suspect part of what keeps cars from having problems is the frequency of use. The fuel never has a chance to absorb water. I know the filling station I worked at had to get deliveries at least once a week, twice during the summer. And that was in a slow part of town. I heard that some of the busier stations needed daily deliveries. Compare that to the tanks at your local FBO. There's a darn good reason the refineries mix the ethanol in the delivery trucks. The longer it's mixed with the gasoline in vented tanks, the more likely it'll become water contaminated.

Phil

It sounds like a good idea to me. Let us turn all of our food crops into fuel. Fuel that we cannot use in our planes. I am sure that it will really lower the price of car gas. It is okay if the food prices go up also.

Let me see. Marty raises corn and is part owner of an ethanol plant. Maybe there is a good reason for him to be pro-ethanol.

I did not think I would see Idaho being taken over by the Dark Side.

flyer