mtv wrote:

Liaro wrote:I know several folks have pointed out distance measuring apps, but I thought I'd chime in that the Google Maps app that just about everyone has on their phones also has a distance measuring feature. You just press and hold to drop a pin. When you then click on your dropped pin, the pop up menu will give you an option to measure distance. It's only approximate for runway/landing area length since it's in miles to the nearest tenth. However, I also find it useful for daydreaming about cross countries because I can quickly find the straight line distance between two airports. You can even segment the line similar to Google Earth, but all right from your phone.

Actually, you can select the units in the app, to read feet, meters, etc.

But the bottom line is you STILL need to conduct a good site evaluation when you get there. Some of those images are fairly old, so things may have changed.

Google Earth is a good tool to use at home for planning purposes, though.

MTV

Feet is an option on your phone app? My phone only let's me do miles or kilometers. Of course Earth will let me do all kinds of units, buy I like using the phone app while I'm on commercial flights to see how short we get off the ground. I'm such a nerd:)

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I was out scouting some hunting areas this weekend being new to New Mexico and had done my homework on google earth as to some potential places to put down for a future base camp. I’m not one of you true bush pilots or of off airport pioneers, however, I do feel I am proficient enough to engage in the conversation.

After getting back and feeling kind of down that I hardly even flew any mock approaches due to the 20g40 wind coming through the mountains it was good to find this thread. This weekend just wasn’t worth the risk and after gleaning some insight from MTV’s posts I’m beginning to wonder if it’s even worth it at all. The weather here, especially the wind, is extremely unpredictable and when we consider that this is pure recreation I don’t know that beating on the Wagon to try and set up on the side of a mountain or in some canyon is worth the risk.

The diurnal rate is 40 degrees in the summer months. Wind, updrafts and downdrafts, orograraphic lift, and turbulence, especially around mesas are the way of life there. I sprayed from first light till around ten when the wind came up. I almost never sprayed before evening because the wind seldom died until after dark. I flew back and forth from Gallup to my helicopter ambulance unit in Santa Fe at 1500 Friday going and 1700 Sunday return. I landed a few times in the desert for thunderstorms, waited 30 minutes and moved on. I landed at an angle across single runways as a standard practice.

Flying slow in updrafts and fast through downdrafts I tremendously increased the performance of various 65-150 hp airplanes. Other than spraying, I learned that the wind was my friend. It is less obviously so in your 180, but wind management can make any airplane better. Your engine can get you 500 fpm in the heat of day, but ridge lift can get you 1,000 fpm and thermals can get you 2,000 fpm on a regular basis. Yes it is rough. Use rudder alone to keep the wing level as adverse yaw makes aileron use funky to dangerous. Wind management will increase STOL performance far more than any modification.

Get with some BCP guys and acclimize to the high desert. It is interesting.

Hey Contact,

Yes, I agree wind is your friend. The wind itself isn’t the problem, the problem is it rolling through the canyons and mountains. When you go from 1500fpm updraft to 1000fpm downdraft without changing heading there isn’t a safe way IMO to effectively navigate at low level. The rotors are unpredictable and unforgiving.

I frequently operate in the 10-12k+ DA environment and I seem to pay a much higher DA penalty in the 180 than I did in the Maule. Either that or I’m jaded now that I am nowhere near sea level being based at 7k. I reviewed some video from the weekend and TO with DA around 7500ft on pavement was about 600’ at 2600lbs but the airplane wouldn’t climb out of ground effect until closer to 1000’.

TxAgfisher,

I was based at Moriarty and flew pipelines from Hobbs and Denver City that joined SE of town, went by you, San Pedro, and on to Durango and Farmington. Lift from hill 8760 helped get over into the drainage from Placitas to Santa Ana. Another line from Amarillo south of Moriarty and over the Manzano Mountains just north of Mosca peak to the tank farm just SW of Kirtland/Sunport. The small valley ridge system from Chilili to Mosca peak pass was tough. Very limited vertical space available.

On a ridge lift to a pass that is crooked enough to put you in plunging air and you can't safely shift to the opposite ridge, energy management turn back down the drainage is necessary. The tough thing about NM verses Colorado is that generally much less vertical space is available.

With your 180 and no need to be 200' AGL for patrol, on course thermalling well. You have a big speed range between Vso and Vne. You can go really slow in up air and really fast through downdrafts. Some days you could take off at Sunport and thermal up on course to cross over Mount Taylor. With 12 gallons and 65 mph cruise, I couldn't chance the headwind in a Champ.

TxAgfisher wrote:I was out scouting some hunting areas this weekend being new to New Mexico and had done my homework on google earth as to some potential places to put down for a future base camp. I’m not one of you true bush pilots or of off airport pioneers, however, I do feel I am proficient enough to engage in the conversation.

After getting back and feeling kind of down that I hardly even flew any mock approaches due to the 20g40 wind coming through the mountains it was good to find this thread. This weekend just wasn’t worth the risk and after gleaning some insight from MTV’s posts I’m beginning to wonder if it’s even worth it at all. The weather here, especially the wind, is extremely unpredictable and when we consider that this is pure recreation I don’t know that beating on the Wagon to try and set up on the side of a mountain or in some canyon is worth the risk.

Discretion is the better part of valour.

If you push it hard enough, for long enough, you are going to come unstuck eventually. Just a matter of time.
Landing in grass / brush where you simply cannot see what your are landing on is high risk, that's a fact. I prefer to land in a riverbed where you can see for certain what you are landing on, then walk over and scout the other location.
I like the rule of thumb " if you are talking yourself into the landing, you're doing it wrong". You want to be talking yourself out of the landing.

In an environment where insurance cost is going up steeply and insurers are wise to bushwheels and off airport landings, we need to be careful as a community to fly safely and not take undue risk.

[/quote]
Discretion is the better part of valour.

If you push it hard enough, for long enough, you are going to come unstuck eventually. Just a matter of time.
Landing in grass / brush where you simply cannot see what your are landing on is high risk, that's a fact. I prefer to land in a riverbed where you can see for certain what you are landing on, then walk over and scout the other location.
I like the rule of thumb " if you are talking yourself into the landing, you're doing it wrong". You want to be talking yourself out of the landing.

In an environment where insurance cost is going up steeply and insurers are wise to bushwheels and off airport landings, we need to be careful as a community to fly safely and not take undue risk.[/quote]

Right? An unobstructed field or gravel bar isn’t a great comparison to these areas I’m looking at. They are all pretty much 1000’ or less and at 8,000’ MSL. Too tight for comfort and the roads I could land on don’t offer the off the beaten path experience/hunt I was looking for. I’ll just drive and use the camper or if I draw in unit 16 I’ll use one of the USFS strips.

TxAgfisher wrote:

Discretion is the better part of valour.

If you push it hard enough, for long enough, you are going to come unstuck eventually. Just a matter of time.
Landing in grass / brush where you simply cannot see what your are landing on is high risk, that's a fact. I prefer to land in a riverbed where you can see for certain what you are landing on, then walk over and scout the other location.
I like the rule of thumb " if you are talking yourself into the landing, you're doing it wrong". You want to be talking yourself out of the landing.

In an environment where insurance cost is going up steeply and insurers are wise to bushwheels and off airport landings, we need to be careful as a community to fly safely and not take undue risk.[/quote]

Right? An unobstructed field or gravel bar isn’t a great comparison to these areas I’m looking at. They are all pretty much 1000’ or less and at 8,000’ MSL. Too tight for comfort and the roads I could land on don’t offer the off the beaten path experience/hunt I was looking for. I’ll just drive and use the camper or if I draw in unit 16 I’ll use one of the USFS strips.[/quote]

If you are not comfortable going back on a nice cool calm morning, and dragging it, (what I would suggest) don't. Of course you don't want to let down into such tall grass that you would be totally clueless as to what was there, (and I'm not sure why such an obvious thing was even brought up, also the concern about potentially raising other pilot's insurance rates) but you knew that I'm guessing. If you're not prepared to lose the aircraft keep to the pavement or grass strips. You can for sure "cheat" and check it out on a ATV first. There is a big difference between landing an off airport site in KNOWN conditions, conditions at that time. Then coming back after hunting (or bike riding) hours later and now the piece of cake site is a whole different animal, I'm about out of mixed metaphors..... A lot of the places I go I plan on a early AM arrival, and the next morning an early departure.

I've had my belly fabric and tail feathers more banged up landing gravel bars then I have on any mountain side, it's all potentially bad news, wouldn't be as much fun if there was no risk.

Decided to touch one wheel in a known wet strip, just to get “feel” for what bad is - almost left the plane there - full power couldn’t get me out, adding 20 degrees of flaps provided just enough lift to get me out...never again.

courierguy wrote:….. If you're not prepared to lose the aircraft keep to the pavement or grass strips. ….wouldn't be as much fun if there was no risk.

Although I agree with the second part, I guess the first part leaves me out.

We don't have the tall grass issue here, just cactus and juniper everywhere. Lot's of places that would be otherwise landable are not due to the growth of all those suckers.