I'm building an Bearhawk that should be flying this summer and I'm starting to think about skis for next winter (2,700lbs gross). I've never flown on skis and don't know much about them but certainly want to learn. I live in northern nevada.

Where is the best place to get more info on skis and ski manufatures. I'm hoping there are less expensive options than new/certified. I'm thinking penetration skis or hydraylic, but really don't know what the advantages are to either type.

Im not much help on experimental skis but if you want straight skis Id use 3500 federals there is a pair on barnstormers for 3000.
Hows the bearhawk coming along, did you get a kit or build from plans? Ive been looking at them looks like a good desine just wondered what somone who built one thinks.

Thanks for the info on Federal Skis. I'll look into them.

The Bearhawk is a Quick Build kit. The first thing I noticed when looking them over is the excellent quality of the workmanship in the kits. The welding is beautiful and and the sheet metal work is outstanding. I started building 2.5 years ago and will finish in about 3yrs. I work on it after work and weekends - time permitting balancing family needs and life's surprises along the way.

They are very good flyers with strong STOl capability and very good slow flight characeristics. I have flown two completed examples and can say the performance figures are as advertised. Really aside from a few minor things, I'm very happy with the kit, and the support from AviPro; a good bunch for sure. They are not complete kits like say the Vans kits are so you have to also buy hardware, wheels, tires, etc sepratley.

I will say building takes more time, effort, and money than I originally thoght as this is my first project. I was blissfully nieve. The amount I learned along the way plus having a fun plane to fly at the end makes it definitely worth while, though.

2700lb gross? I thought the 4 place only had a 2500lb gross? Did they up it somewhere along the way? Of course the latest Sport Aviation lists it at only 2100lbs. I'm building a Patrol, but some friends of mine are considering the 4 place.

Phil
P073

Bob Barrows the designer/engineer specifys a 2,500 lb landing gross with 2,700 lb takeoff gross. Bob is a conservative engineer. The gross weights are in the utility category and would be (400lb or so heavier) in the normal category which, as you probably know, is how gross weights for most TC planes are derived. The Bearhawk is a heavy hauler to be sure. I would think the same applies to the Patrol as well.

Back to your original post: A friend of mine put Landes Airglas penetration skis on his Citabria last year and is very happy with them. He says they work very well on snow, and he can still rope a ski to make tight turns. But they're not cheap.
http://www.airglas.com/light_aircraft/index.html

Bob recommends a 2000lb gross for the Patrol. I've had the chance to compare plans and the Patrol wing is a lot lighter. Fewer ribs, lighter skins and shorter spar doublers. His prototype came in under 1,000lbs dry, but since I want an electrical system and 8.50 tires I expect mine will be closer to 1100lbs. Still, compared to the C-150 I have now that'll be a heck of a lot of useful load.

Phil

I've been thinking about the Bearhawk lately also. Though, the more I study it the more it looks like a copy of a Maule M4 and I figured by the time I got one built I could have saved up and purchased a M5 with the good square tail. What do you guys think?

I can only say give both a demo flight and see what you think. AviPro will reimburse your plane ticket to Phoenix or Texas should you buy a kit. I must say I have never flown a Maul so I can only relate what I've read, been told, and observed. Before buying a Bearhawk, I was very interested in Mauls, I just couldn't overcome the value the BH offered.

The Bearhawk fuselage does resemble a Maule and the doors appear to be a copy, but the similarities end there. The Maul empty weight is higher. The wings and control surfaces are quite a bit different. The BH uses a modified 4412 airfoil with LARGE flaps and ailerons and the wing is larger, too. It uses a single strut ala Cessna. The BH slow flight characteristics are fantastic and STOL performance is amazing not to mention higher useful load.

I understand the Maile has very good chacteristics, too; with the BH having the on edge handling/performance. The BH also has a stick. Yes, it will take at least 3 years to build one from the kit, but then you can do all the annuals/maintenance yourself and can build a new plane for about half the cost of a new Maul.

The Maul is a very good aircraft so in no way am I suggesting otherwise; Id be happy to own one.

Both approachs have their advantages to be sure. Flying now is very appealing. Building a kit is a monumental sized project that will consume a lot of time. A demo flight is the only way to know for sure which plane best meets your desire.

Phil,

Thanks for the info on the airglass. The LW3600 looks to be the right ski. I'll get some more info from them.

How far along are you with the Patrol project? That certainly is a large useful load. Should be fun. Are in NP, AK?

Mike

That's about what I figured too. I'll probably use 2500's or 3000's on the Patrol.

I've had the plans for almost 2 years now. And I made up a list of how many of each rib, of each thickness and how much to trim the ends last night. But since I just finished ripping most of the interior out of my Cessna today, It might be a while yet before I start hammering aluminum. I'm still on step 1: finish all existing projects first. Didn't help that I bought a house last year and have been trying to get it fixed up too.

Yes, I'm in North Pole Alaska. Drop me a line when you're heading this way in your Bearhawk. I'd be happy to let you park it at my place, though FAI has a wonderful campground. There's a couple other builders in the area, and more than a few who are thinking about one. :thumbsup:

Phil

What is the average finished cost they are advertising for the Bearhawk? I would dare say that after some friends have homebuilt airplanes that half the price of a Maule isn't possible. You're talking $65-75k finished. The firewall forward is gonna be half of that sitting in boxes.
I've looked at it before but couldn't find kit pricing on the website. Clue me in.
I'm gonna say that either way you cut it if you run 235-260hp you'll be in it over $100k with basic VFR six pack and a couple of digital radios, gps, txp. That's not counting the three years (or more aslife pops up) to build it or paying yourself anything for your time, the electric/heat, and maybe rental of space to build it.
The future maintenance issue is a valid point to be considered. You can find IA's occasionally that will allow owner assisted for $4-700 w/parts extra.

This just came out:

Bearhawk Prices to Increase

It’s that time of year again
To cover the rapidly rising cost of just about everything
AviPro Aircraft as no choice but to increase our prices.
Our kits and components will go up 7% effective February 1, 2008

The Quick Build kit will increase from $35,500 to $37,900.
All other sub-kits and components will increase similarly.

So they are going up along with everything else.

How much is a new Maul these days? The last time I looked I thought they were about $180k with No options. Sometimes it is hard to compare exactly apples to apples depending on engine choices, etc. A very nice BH can be built for $90k. You can spend more or less depending on what you want. Contact AviPro as they a building price calculator available. Yes, one can be built for $70k if you are good at finding deals and don't buy all the bleeding edge goodies. I'm not including the price of space or tools in these numbers.

I wouldn't recommend building to anyone unless they have the interest and time to do so. It is just too big a project to finish in reasnonable time unless you WANT to do it. Also, support from the family is important as they have to be behind the effort too since the builder will be taking time away from them and will need extra hands on occasion. Friends who have built before are invaluable.

I do recommend flying one. Just look at the larger size of the rudder and ailerons compared to a Maule. Yes, that is a clue about BH handling.

Phil,

Thanks for the offer. I'll be sure to look you up the next time I'm in AK. Always like to see projects underway. We do plan on taking the Bearhawk on a flying vacation to AK in a couple of years.

Mike

I was looking at the Bearhawk quick build kits prior to buying my Maule. Lots of pros to the Bearhawk. Bigger cabin, you sit up higher much like the seat in a 172 so vis is good, the thing just doesn't want to stall and when it does there's almost no pitch change, it just mushes. We couldn't get it to stall with power (2 people and 1/2 tank of fuel). Maybe that says it doesn't have enough elevator but full aft stick with full power and a crazy pitch attitude and it just kept climbing. Great usefull load and big CG envelope too.

I bought the Maule because it was as close to a Bearhawk as I could get without spending every day off I had for the next 3 years on a project. I figured that I would have around 90K into it when done. I bought my Maule for less money and get to fly it around for those 3 years. I'm happy so far!

Wanting to do it is the main excuse I can think of. That's what I was feeling for after the statement about "savings" from a Maule.
Another note on that is when comparing new to new, you got it with the BH.
That said there are some smokin' deals on fairly low time Maules. Like $120-140k for 100 to 400 hours total time. Rob Burson went that way and seems to love it. Just a thought if you're gonna be in it $100k in the end anyway.
But that's from the perspective of a guy that hates working on them and has a crack like addiction to flying them, always.
One of my friends just finished an RV-7 on amphibs that took him over 18 months to "finish" (it still needed tweaking until recently) and he had the ability to go full time Monday-Friday most weeks with the help of people in a very equipped and knowledgable shop. It's great (not always functional)and won many of the awards in class at EAA functions and he learned a lot about airplanes (he already had about 8k hours of various time) but when asked if he'd do it again....hell no.

Lowflyin'G3
I think you hit the nail on the head. Most of us that are building airplanes see it as GETTING to build it, not HAVING to build it. We tend to enjoy working on them as much or more than flying.

If you want a truly apples to apples comparison I guess you'd have to compare the price of a 300 hr Maule to a 300 hr Bearhawk. With the exception of the RV's, homebuilts tend to sell pretty darn cheap.

Phil

Good point on the resale Phil. Didn't really think about that one.