Don't overlook the Stinson 108's. Awesome aircraft!! In my opinion, one of the true "sleeper" deals still around!
John

Look into the early (straight tail) Cessna 182. It can do a tremendous amount of hauling, and has excellent XC speed. The consensus seems to support the idea that with a set of 8.00 tires and a large nosewheel fork it will take you 90%+ anywhere that other bush planes can go. The STOL kits, VG's etc. all are known to work pretty well on the 182. Insurance will be very reasonable. Strong airframe, well known to withstand back country use. Reliable, well-respected engine. Good parts availability, excellent worldwide availability of maintenance and repair. Known safe and predictable flight characteristics. Holds resale value well. Usable for a family of 4. You can buy decent ones for 40-60K.

Thanks for the input! i wil add it to my search list...does anyone have any advice/recomendations on how to buy the plane once youve found the "right one". What I mean by how to - is how does a pre-buy inspection work? do you find someone to where the plane is to trust to do the pre-buy, aka if i bought a plane in alaska for example( i am from maine). any incite would be awesome

Nrmangino7 wrote:Thanks for the input! i wil add it to my search list...does anyone have any advice/recomendations on how to buy the plane once youve found the "right one". What I mean by how to - is how does a pre-buy inspection work? do you find someone to where the plane is to trust to do the pre-buy, aka if i bought a plane in alaska for example( i am from maine). any incite would be awesome

Word of mouth is pretty key here - folks know the good mechanics. If you find something you're ready to cross the pre-buy boundary for, post up and someone will know a good mechanic in that area.

My short advise is to read up on the legal differences between a pre-buy and a
fresh - before you write a check - signed off annual inspection.
Possibly find a local IA in your area who will be working with you later and send him to look while all the insp. covers are off - etc. Problem with you going initially is that you will likely end up loosing your heart to it. Happens a lot.
Wishing best results either way. Chris C

I will definitely post on here when I get ready to pull the trigger to see out there can recommend someone in the area I buy.
thanks for the advice.

Yeah, I am trying to avoid that! I just didn't want to get some mechanic that might be in with the owner to try to cover up a problem issue. I hate to be that way but in this world you never know...

Nrmangino7 wrote:Yeah, I am trying to avoid that! I just didn't want to get some mechanic that might be in with the owner to try to cover up a problem issue. I hate to be that way but in this world you never know...

I would consider it unlikely that an FAA-certified mechanic would intentionally risk his license by covering up something that he knew was wrong with the airplane. But the person who's been maintaining the airplane is no more able to recognize their own mistakes than an author is of editing their own copy... It's ALWAYS a good idea to bring in someone who has NOT been working on that plane to do the inspection.

The way I start my purchase process is this: Once I've found a candidate airplane that seems like it fits my criteria, I ask for a copy of the logs to be sent to me for my personal review. Given the fact that scanners can be purchased for less than $50 these days, an owner who isn't willing to make a scanned PDF copy of their logs to share with potential buyers is either hopelessly out of touch with the market today, or is covering something up. No logs available? We're done and move on to another airplane. Don't waste my time or make me waste a mechanic's time because you're unwilling to spend a couple of hours scanning your logs...

By this time, I've already been in touch with the "type club" for the airplane I'm looking at, or at least gotten with several experienced owners and/or mechanics familiar with the type, and asked them for a list of things that might go wrong with the airplane that would be completely impossible to repair. Some airplanes have "special" parts that are irreplaceable. For example, if the spar carry-through on a Grumman Tiger or Cheetah becomes corroded, the entire airplane is junk, because the cost to PMA certify a newly manufactured part is upwards of $200K, and no one is willing to take that plunge. The cost vastly exceeds the worth of the airframe. All the used ones from salvage yards have escalated in price to the point where they cost as much as an engineless airplane!

That "show stopper" list, combined with any "hot spots" I indentify during the logbook review are the first things I have the pre-buy mechanic check on the plane, with instructions that if any of them are spotted on the plane - stop the inspection - we're done... If we get past that point, I ask them to check that ALL of the installed avionics are working, including the autopilot (ground checks, at least). Avionics can be extremely expensive to repair - especially those "no longer supported" GPS systems that often are installed. If they're not working, it's sometimes more expensive to make it right than installing a new working GPS or radio that does work...

Notice that I saved engine stuff for last? That's because almost any competent A&P can tell you pretty quickly if the engine is OK or not. Most of them will do a run-up, check idle speeds and roughness, check that the mixture control and throttle work correctly and operate throughout the required range, check the mags and mag timing, and that it shuts down cleanly. Afterwards, they will check differential compressions on the cylinders. If everything seems OK to that point, I'll ask them to change the oil and filter, cutting the filter open and inspect it for any metal, just as they would any other oil change...

I REALLY like it when the A&P is familiar with doing a borescope analysis of the exaust valves in addition to the compression check and the Lycoming valve wobble check. I like it even better if they can send me color pictures of the exhaust valves taken during the examination... If the valves look like a pizza pie, with relatively even or smoothly graduated coloration (black to red), with the deposits fairly equidistant from the entire circumference, that's "Good." If the coloration makes irregular shapes, or there is ANY "green" color depositing on the valve face, I simply assume that cylinder is bad (or will be shortly) and we need to plan to replace it very soon.

All that comes out good, or I can make pricing accomodations with the seller to allow for me to make the repairs myself and be happy with the plane? We're good to go! Seller unwilling to adjust price for a bad cylinder, inoperative GPS, etc. means I've got to decide if I'm willing to pay more for the airplane than eitehr of us was thinking it was worth... That stuff has to get fixed sooner or later, so it goes into the "deferred maintenance" budget and added to the total cost of the airplane. Still think it's worth the price? Buy it. You know what you're getting into...

And even with all this, there can still be surprizes that bite you in the wallet... An engine with perfect compression and excellent-looking valves can still have cam lobe corrosion and pitting that will require an overhaul. It's why we keep some money in reserve, and buy less airplane than the maximum we can afford, right? Right? RIGHT??? (Preaching to my own choir, here!)

I've been really lucky following the above process, and been very happy with every plane I've purchased. I've walked away from a couple of airplanes that might have been great, because their owners didn't want to go along with my process, but MOST owners have been quite reasonable about my requests. Especially when I'm willing to commit up-front to buying the plane for the agreed-upon price, pending a clean pre-buy (and they understand what that entails). There's always a clear understanding that any "show-stoppers" found in the pre-buy means the deal is off, and anything else that is a "major" expense (which I generally cap at $250 to repair) puts us back into price negotiation phase.

Good luck, and hope you find a great plane that is perfect for your mission!

On the other hand, as a seller, I'll let you peruse the logs and do an annual inspection after a deposit is made. At that point it's up to you to perform your due diligence and determine what you're buying, because if you're buying a used aircraft from me it's "as is." As private owners we shouldn't be in the business of warranties and guarantees. This concept of legality or liability with an annual inspection is BS. You will sign a bill of sale or sale agreement that you've used all resources necessary to determine that what you're buying is satisfactory to you. That's the point of an annual-- a super thorough cavity search of the airplane.

If you buy it after discovering it's not airworthy, you have the freedom to do so. Resume own navigation.

Some sellers might be reluctant to have a strange mechanic getting all deep up in their bird but that's the reality of these transactions. If they won't allow it, walk away.

People buy projects and unairworthy aircraft all the time because it's understood that there's little expectation and it's up to the dreamer to determine viability.

A lot of squawks in these inspections are thing that easily fixed with repairs or parts replacements, but what you really need to keep your eyes open for are the ones that aren't. Corrosion, bent or cracked major structural members, bad fabric, etc...these will break your heart.

None of this is to say there shouldn't be a strong ethical element to buying and selling aircraft, but unfortunately many people will not disclose negative details, stuff an annual might not turn up, like a plane that got dunked in a lake then dried out. Maybe the seller doesn't even know. There are also a lot of people with integrity who will be honest and treat you well. The hard part is determining who is who.

JP256 wrote:

Nrmangino7 wrote:Yeah, I am trying to avoid that! I just didn't want to get some mechanic that might be in with the owner to try to cover up a problem issue. I hate to be that way but in this world you never know...

I would consider it unlikely that an FAA-certified mechanic would intentionally risk his license by covering up something that he knew was wrong with the airplane. But the person who's been maintaining the airplane is no more able to recognize their own mistakes than an author is of editing their own copy... It's ALWAYS a good idea to bring in someone who has NOT been working on that plane to do the inspection.

The way I start my purchase process is this: Once I've found a candidate airplane that seems like it fits my criteria, I ask for a copy of the logs to be sent to me for my personal review. Given the fact that scanners can be purchased for less than $50 these days, an owner who isn't willing to make a scanned PDF copy of their logs to share with potential buyers is either hopelessly out of touch with the market today, or is covering something up. No logs available? We're done and move on to another airplane. Don't waste my time or make me waste a mechanic's time because you're unwilling to spend a couple of hours scanning your logs...

By this time, I've already been in touch with the "type club" for the airplane I'm looking at, or at least gotten with several experienced owners and/or mechanics familiar with the type, and asked them for a list of things that might go wrong with the airplane that would be completely impossible to repair. Some airplanes have "special" parts that are irreplaceable. For example, if the spar carry-through on a Grumman Tiger or Cheetah becomes corroded, the entire airplane is junk, because the cost to PMA certify a newly manufactured part is upwards of $200K, and no one is willing to take that plunge. The cost vastly exceeds the worth of the airframe. All the used ones from salvage yards have escalated in price to the point where they cost as much as an engineless airplane!

That "show stopper" list, combined with any "hot spots" I indentify during the logbook review are the first things I have the pre-buy mechanic check on the plane, with instructions that if any of them are spotted on the plane - stop the inspection - we're done... If we get past that point, I ask them to check that ALL of the installed avionics are working, including the autopilot (ground checks, at least). Avionics can be extremely expensive to repair - especially those "no longer supported" GPS systems that often are installed. If they're not working, it's sometimes more expensive to make it right than installing a new working GPS or radio that does work...

Notice that I saved engine stuff for last? That's because almost any competent A&P can tell you pretty quickly if the engine is OK or not. Most of them will do a run-up, check idle speeds and roughness, check that the mixture control and throttle work correctly and operate throughout the required range, check the mags and mag timing, and that it shuts down cleanly. Afterwards, they will check differential compressions on the cylinders. If everything seems OK to that point, I'll ask them to change the oil and filter, cutting the filter open and inspect it for any metal, just as they would any other oil change...

I REALLY like it when the A&P is familiar with doing a borescope analysis of the exaust valves in addition to the compression check and the Lycoming valve wobble check. I like it even better if they can send me color pictures of the exhaust valves taken during the examination... If the valves look like a pizza pie, with relatively even or smoothly graduated coloration (black to red), with the deposits fairly equidistant from the entire circumference, that's "Good." If the coloration makes irregular shapes, or there is ANY "green" color depositing on the valve face, I simply assume that cylinder is bad (or will be shortly) and we need to plan to replace it very soon.

All that comes out good, or I can make pricing accomodations with the seller to allow for me to make the repairs myself and be happy with the plane? We're good to go! Seller unwilling to adjust price for a bad cylinder, inoperative GPS, etc. means I've got to decide if I'm willing to pay more for the airplane than eitehr of us was thinking it was worth... That stuff has to get fixed sooner or later, so it goes into the "deferred maintenance" budget and added to the total cost of the airplane. Still think it's worth the price? Buy it. You know what you're getting into...

And even with all this, there can still be surprizes that bite you in the wallet... An engine with perfect compression and excellent-looking valves can still have cam lobe corrosion and pitting that will require an overhaul. It's why we keep some money in reserve, and buy less airplane than the maximum we can afford, right? Right? RIGHT??? (Preaching to my own choir, here!)

I've been really lucky following the above process, and been very happy with every plane I've purchased. I've walked away from a couple of airplanes that might have been great, because their owners didn't want to go along with my process, but MOST owners have been quite reasonable about my requests. Especially when I'm willing to commit up-front to buying the plane for the agreed-upon price, pending a clean pre-buy (and they understand what that entails). There's always a clear understanding that any "show-stoppers" found in the pre-buy means the deal is off, and anything else that is a "major" expense (which I generally cap at $250 to repair) puts us back into price negotiation phase.

Good luck, and hope you find a great plane that is perfect for your mission!

I appreciate this length response! I will be saving this advice for my airplane search, I have the somewhat luxury of being a crew chief/mechanic for the air force on the kc-135R and work on all the flight controls. With that said, I'm still pretty green when it comes to being able to identify issues on these smaller aircraft. Thanks again.

JP256 wrote:

Nrmangino7 wrote:Yeah, I am trying to avoid that! I just didn't want to get some mechanic that might be in with the owner to try to cover up a problem issue. I hate to be that way but in this world you never know...

I would consider it unlikely that an FAA-certified mechanic would intentionally risk his license by covering up something that he knew was wrong with the airplane. But the person who's been maintaining the airplane is no more able to recognize their own mistakes than an author is of editing their own copy... It's ALWAYS a good idea to bring in someone who has NOT been working on that plane to do the inspection.

The way I start my purchase process is this: Once I've found a candidate airplane that seems like it fits my criteria, I ask for a copy of the logs to be sent to me for my personal review. Given the fact that scanners can be purchased for less than $50 these days, an owner who isn't willing to make a scanned PDF copy of their logs to share with potential buyers is either hopelessly out of touch with the market today, or is covering something up. No logs available? We're done and move on to another airplane. Don't waste my time or make me waste a mechanic's time because you're unwilling to spend a couple of hours scanning your logs...

By this time, I've already been in touch with the "type club" for the airplane I'm looking at, or at least gotten with several experienced owners and/or mechanics familiar with the type, and asked them for a list of things that might go wrong with the airplane that would be completely impossible to repair. Some airplanes have "special" parts that are irreplaceable. For example, if the spar carry-through on a Grumman Tiger or Cheetah becomes corroded, the entire airplane is junk, because the cost to PMA certify a newly manufactured part is upwards of $200K, and no one is willing to take that plunge. The cost vastly exceeds the worth of the airframe. All the used ones from salvage yards have escalated in price to the point where they cost as much as an engineless airplane!

That "show stopper" list, combined with any "hot spots" I indentify during the logbook review are the first things I have the pre-buy mechanic check on the plane, with instructions that if any of them are spotted on the plane - stop the inspection - we're done... If we get past that point, I ask them to check that ALL of the installed avionics are working, including the autopilot (ground checks, at least). Avionics can be extremely expensive to repair - especially those "no longer supported" GPS systems that often are installed. If they're not working, it's sometimes more expensive to make it right than installing a new working GPS or radio that does work...

Notice that I saved engine stuff for last? That's because almost any competent A&P can tell you pretty quickly if the engine is OK or not. Most of them will do a run-up, check idle speeds and roughness, check that the mixture control and throttle work correctly and operate throughout the required range, check the mags and mag timing, and that it shuts down cleanly. Afterwards, they will check differential compressions on the cylinders. If everything seems OK to that point, I'll ask them to change the oil and filter, cutting the filter open and inspect it for any metal, just as they would any other oil change...

I REALLY like it when the A&P is familiar with doing a borescope analysis of the exaust valves in addition to the compression check and the Lycoming valve wobble check. I like it even better if they can send me color pictures of the exhaust valves taken during the examination... If the valves look like a pizza pie, with relatively even or smoothly graduated coloration (black to red), with the deposits fairly equidistant from the entire circumference, that's "Good." If the coloration makes irregular shapes, or there is ANY "green" color depositing on the valve face, I simply assume that cylinder is bad (or will be shortly) and we need to plan to replace it very soon.

All that comes out good, or I can make pricing accomodations with the seller to allow for me to make the repairs myself and be happy with the plane? We're good to go! Seller unwilling to adjust price for a bad cylinder, inoperative GPS, etc. means I've got to decide if I'm willing to pay more for the airplane than eitehr of us was thinking it was worth... That stuff has to get fixed sooner or later, so it goes into the "deferred maintenance" budget and added to the total cost of the airplane. Still think it's worth the price? Buy it. You know what you're getting into...

And even with all this, there can still be surprizes that bite you in the wallet... An engine with perfect compression and excellent-looking valves can still have cam lobe corrosion and pitting that will require an overhaul. It's why we keep some money in reserve, and buy less airplane than the maximum we can afford, right? Right? RIGHT??? (Preaching to my own choir, here!)

I've been really lucky following the above process, and been very happy with every plane I've purchased. I've walked away from a couple of airplanes that might have been great, because their owners didn't want to go along with my process, but MOST owners have been quite reasonable about my requests. Especially when I'm willing to commit up-front to buying the plane for the agreed-upon price, pending a clean pre-buy (and they understand what that entails). There's always a clear understanding that any "show-stoppers" found in the pre-buy means the deal is off, and anything else that is a "major" expense (which I generally cap at $250 to repair) puts us back into price negotiation phase.

Good luck, and hope you find a great plane that is perfect for your mission!

Do you usually pick a few "hone" in on and do as much digging as you can before making the trek out to wherever the plane is?

Nrmangino7 wrote:Do you usually pick a few "hone" in on and do as much digging as you can before making the trek out to wherever the plane is?

I narrow the list considerably before even trying to get the logs. If I ask for the logs, I'm closing in for the purchase. I'm a firm believer that "my word is my bond", and that a man's word should be as good as any contract on paper. When I tell the seller that based on our conversations so far, I am seriously interested in buying his airplane, I mean it. If he has accurately represented the plane to the best of his knowledge, we're probably going to do business, unless something neither of us was aware of comes up during the pre-buy, and we cannot work out a workable compromise.

I bought a plane that needed a fairly major repair to the vertical fin, and agreed to split the cost of that repair with the seller. He was most appreciative. I was simply repaying his own willingness to keep his word when another buyer tried to get him to break our verbal contract by offering more money for the plane than we had already agreed upon, and his honesty pertaining to the rest of the plane's condition.

So, I'm generally only looking at one set of logs at a time, unless I find something that causes me to reject that plane, then I move on quickly. (lLike the "no damage history" airplane that had prop, engine, main landing gear, and gear attach saddle all pulled off and overhauled or replaced over a six-month period with zero flying time... I got the owner to send pictures of the firewall area taken with his phone, and could immediately see evidence of a seriously hard landing that had even wrinkled the firewall. The airplane was not airworthy and the expense of replacing a firewall on that type was so high that the plane was basically "salvage" at that point. Current owner had no idea - he bought it that way, and his IA signed off the annual — twice!

But after the logbook review, it's generally the case that I make an offer, contingent on the inspection process I described previously. If the airplane is as promised, I "own it" at that point. If not, we discuss and try to reach a new agreement.

So, basically it's one at a time beyond that initial logbook review.

Okay, let's look REALISTICALLY at the planes that've been suggested so far, taking into account your assertion that you want a wheel/ski/float equipped plane.

1. Cessna 170B: Great old airplanes...I owned one for the better part of 20 years, but mine had a 180 hp engine, not the original 145 hp engine. Does this make a difference? YES. For one thing, the ONLY floats that are approved for the STOCK 170 are the EDO 2000 floats. The good news is that there are many dozens of those floats around the country, and prices are reasonable as floats go. The bad news is that the 170 is significantly under floated on those floats. It'll work, but with two "normal size" people, half fuel and just a little stuff, you're about maxed out. And, I'm not talking just LEGAL gross weight....I'm talking about being able to get off the water in less than a mile..... You can add a float kit to a 170, and it's not TOO huge a job, but finding the parts to do so can be difficult and costly, mostly the rear blocks and the front pork chops. Understand that once you buy that 170 you've just started down that money pit.....a decent set of floats are going to cost $10,000, then you'll have to find 170 rigging, which is scarce. Or have some made.....not technically legal, but>>>>> And, this pretty much applies to any airplane that you buy that's not already mounted on floats. Always better to buy one already on floats, so you know what you're bottom line will be....maybe.

The 170 makes a halfway decent ski plane, and if you have a spot to park it on straight skis, it'll serve well. If not, then you'd be looking at penetration skis or retractables. Bring cash.

The stock engine 170 is priced right and is a great airplane, no doubt, The 180 hp modified versions are massively more expensive, and those are the only 170s approved on larger floats. Mine was on PeeKay B2300 floats, which are great floats....and three "normal size" folks and full fuel was both legal and the plane would fly with that load off a fairly small pond.

2. Citabria--any of these--7EC, 7GCB, 7GCBC, etc: Again, EDO 2000 floats are your best bet. You will find that these airplanes are effectively a single seat airplane on floats, with much gas aboard, however. Again, they are great airplanes, and they perform well, but useful load on floats is pretty low. If you (meaning your body) are VERY light, you may be able to get away with flying a passenger who is also small on floats, but you may still have to go light on fuel. They work fine on skis, but again, straight skis are going to be best.

3. Scout--Fine airplane, but VERY expensive, especially on floats. Again, the EDO 2000 floats work on the early (wood wing) Scouts, but you won't have much useful load and the airplane would be underfloated. Bring lots of $$$$ and if you even THINK of looking at any of these or the previously mentioned Aeroncas (except the later Citabrias) they will have wood spars if the plane is reasonably priced. Don't be afraid of wood spars but, get someone to REALLY inspect those spars. There are some serious spar AD's on the earlier Aeroncas.

4. Piper PA-20/22 Pacer--Great airplanes, and as Cameron noted, they are fast, and relatively light. And, reasonably inexpensive. Again, EDO 2000 straight floats would be the best bet for these planes. Again, you're going to have to find rigging....not that many Pacers on floats around. Find a set of floats, then find rigging.

Then you have a VERY marginal performing floatplane. The Pacer MUST have a Borer prop when on floats and wing extensions aren't mandatory, but highly recommended. The two things that floatplanes love is LOTS of wing and LOTS of power. The Pacer has plenty of power (the 150/160 models), but almost no wing area...... A stock wing Pacer with a 160 and a Borer prop will get out of a 2500 to 3000 foot pond with one person up and light on gas. If that works for you.....good deal.

Pacers work fine on skis. All the same caveats apply as above. Also, skiplanes love lots of wing area as well. Depending on how deep the snow is, stock wings may be just fine. It's actually not that expensive to extend the wings on a Pacer a bit and that makes them a much better seaplane.

Pacers can be a bit of a challenge for the brand new low time tailwheel pilot when mounted on wheels. Not a huge deal, but get a GOOD, thorough checkout by a very competent instructor who's experienced in the type. They are NOT a Cub.

5. Stinson 108--Great airplanes, and as noted above, they are inexpensive and often overlooked. One hell of an airplane for the money. They will haul a load, and perform well. Lots of them have been converted with larger engines, and a bigger engine would be good for floats in particular. Roomy four seat airplane and they are one of the gentlest taildraggers out there.

The only down side I see to a Stinson is the difficulty of finding one on floats or finding a set of floats for one. The primary floats that were approved on the 108 series was the EDO 2425 straight float, and these are magnificent floats. But, they are scarcer than hen's teeth. There are a few out there, but it may be hard to find a set. And, again rigging will have to be fabricated or plan on a serious search. Then again, you may get lucky. The Stinson with the right engine and a set of 2425s would be a very good choice.

6. Aeronca Sedan---Another great airplane. As Kurt noted, they aren't that common. Again, the only floats approved are EDO 2000s, and again finding rigging is going to be tough. The stock engine as Kurt noted is a 145 Continental, same as the Cessna 170, and is kind of underpowered. The Sedan is a little lighter than the 170, partially because it has no flaps. They are a very simple airplane, and for an airplane without flaps, they perform remarkably well. As Kurt noted, if you could find one with a 180 hp engine, you would have a fantastic performing seaplane/skiplane/wheelplane....period. On floats, I'd take a good big engine Sedan over any of the others noted here. Believe me, they are performers on floats. Even with the stock engine, they'll out perform the 170 with stock engine on floats.

Used to was that the Sedan was an orphan.....nobody offered parts. Nowadays, a gent named Burl Rogers in Anchorage owns the Type Certificate and he'll make you any part you need. As you can imagine, they aren't cheap, but neither are new parts for any of the other types noted here. Burl is a super good guy, and owns one of the finest 180 hp Sedans you'll ever see....on floats. Buy a good one and you won't need many big parts in any case.

If it were me, I'd probably try to find a decent Pacer (or Tri Pacer that's been converted to tailwheel) for the right price (I've seen them sell lately in the $12,000 to $15,000 range-not pretty mind you, but....) and extend the wings and put a good 82 inch prop on it. Learn to fly it on wheels first, find a set of straight skis, and while you're flying it, look for a set of EDO 2000 floats, preferably with Pacer rigging, but if not, and you find a set of floats for the right price, buy em and then look for rigging. There is a provision in the regs which allows the installation of "Owner produced parts". Do a search for that. It's possible, at least theoretically, to have someone build you a set of struts for the airplane, and install them as "owner produced". There are a couple folks in Canada who can set you up with most types of float rigging. PM me for more info.

Find a cooperative mechanic who'll work with you, or more to the point allow you to assist him in things like extending the wings, etc. And, if it's been sitting for a long time, plan on replacing the camshaft and maybe the cam followers down the road a bit....a solid $7500 bite. That said, you bought it cheap, right??? Lots of expensive planes out there with Lycoming engines that haven't been flown in two years will need the same treatment down the road.

Meantime, fly it like you stole it.

Good luck.

MTV

There is a beautiful Sedan that I see every year in the Seaplanes North yard...drool. They are a pretty airplane.

Put a premium on local airplanes!

When I was plane-shopping I eventually figured out that there's no such thing as a bargain on the other side of the country. The amalgamated costs of traveling to purchase an airplane and then get it back home add up very fast.

Like everything else there are better and worse deals on airplanes, but if you're looking for a turn-key airplane, you're going to pay market price...plus or minus a bit sure, but there are VERY few fantastic deals out there. Think about it...why would someone possibly pay for an add to sell an airplane for less money that they could get from a broker? Engine time, airframe time, instruments and cosmetic condition equals price. If you're seeing something dramatically lower than that, there's usually a reason other than "motivated seller".

When you pencil out the real cost of getting an airplane from the other side of the country, it's almost always cheaper and easier to just pay more for something close to home. And like Zane said, a lot of sellers aren't going to bend over backwards to accommodate a buyer that's out of town. A person selling a good airplane at a decent price will usually have plenty of interested buyers right there on the field. When I sold my Cessna 140 the conditions were simple...if you're interested come look at it: I'm not copying log books or arranging inspections or anything else, because I don't have to.

Traveling has some other disadvantages...for one you don't know anything about the reputation of the seller the way you might at a local field. And even an honest person can (and often does) think their airplane is worth more than it really is. A savvy seller isn't going to move much on the price or address squawks if they know you took a week off of work and spent hundreds of dollars on transportation to come see their airplane, and there are a lot of things you just can't know about an airplane without seeing it in person.

It's a whole lot easier to walk away from something when all you have invested is one Saturday and some car gas, and there are a LOT of airplanes out there that sound great on paper and look good in pictures, but which you really don't want to own.

Lastly, it's just impossible to enjoy an airplane you can't quite afford. Very little time is actually spent flying, and if your non-flying life is significantly affected by owning an airplane, you're not going to be happy about it. Whatever your budget is, stick to it no matter what. A great deal on something that's outside your budget is no deal at all.

Check out the PA-22 Producer on Alaskaslist.com; seems like it is just what you are after and maybe in your price range.

+ a bunch for Hammer hitting it real close.
Only "out of state" plane I ever bought was one I had flown for two summers in Id.

It would have been near impossible for him to duplicate information on the plane:
There were three 3" binders of STCs and 337s Plust a large envelope of half dozen
log books - plus two file boxes full of 8130s.

Who gives a rats ass about what condition a plane was in in 1954? Look, it's fine to go over the logs thoroughly, but more importantly, I want to know what kind of condition a plane is in NOW. And, yes history may shed some light on repairs, but repairs should show up in a pre buy.....a good one that is.

To me, that's the key: A good pre buy.

I would agree that a plane on the far side of the country presents risks. And most every plane is going to need something.

First, figure out what you WANT. Then figure out what you NEED. That's a good start. Don't waste a lot of time on ANY airplane till you settle on what you're looking for.

Then figure out how to get it done. But you're a long ways from that point at the moment....but you're asking great questions.

MTV

JP256 wrote:

Nrmangino7 wrote:Do you usually pick a few "hone" in on and do as much digging as you can before making the trek out to wherever the plane is?

I narrow the list considerably before even trying to get the logs. If I ask for the logs, I'm closing in for the purchase. I'm a firm believer that "my word is my bond", and that a man's word should be as good as any contract on paper. When I tell the seller that based on our conversations so far, I am seriously interested in buying his airplane, I mean it. If he has accurately represented the plane to the best of his knowledge, we're probably going to do business, unless something neither of us was aware of comes up during the pre-buy, and we cannot work out a workable compromise.

I bought a plane that needed a fairly major repair to the vertical fin, and agreed to split the cost of that repair with the seller. He was most appreciative. I was simply repaying his own willingness to keep his word when another buyer tried to get him to break our verbal contract by offering more money for the plane than we had already agreed upon, and his honesty pertaining to the rest of the plane's condition.

So, I'm generally only looking at one set of logs at a time, unless I find something that causes me to reject that plane, then I move on quickly. (lLike the "no damage history" airplane that had prop, engine, main landing gear, and gear attach saddle all pulled off and overhauled or replaced over a six-month period with zero flying time... I got the owner to send pictures of the firewall area taken with his phone, and could immediately see evidence of a seriously hard landing that had even wrinkled the firewall. The airplane was not airworthy and the expense of replacing a firewall on that type was so high that the plane was basically "salvage" at that point. Current owner had no idea - he bought it that way, and his IA signed off the annual — twice!

But after the logbook review, it's generally the case that I make an offer, contingent on the inspection process I described previously. If the airplane is as promised, I "own it" at that point. If not, we discuss and try to reach a new agreement.

So, basically it's one at a time beyond that initial logbook review.

Gotcha. I guess it's time to start narrowing down the playing field of what I really "need". I'm sick of renting!

mtv wrote:Who gives a rats ass about what condition a plane was in in 1954? Look, it's fine to go over the logs thoroughly, but more importantly, I want to know what kind of condition a plane is in NOW. And, yes history may shed some light on repairs, but repairs should show up in a pre buy.....a good one that is.

To me, that's the key: A good pre buy.

I would agree that a plane on the far side of the country presents risks. And most every plane is going to need something.

First, figure out what you WANT. Then figure out what you NEED. That's a good start. Don't waste a lot of time on ANY airplane till you settle on what you're looking for.

Then figure out how to get it done. But you're a long ways from that point at the moment....but you're asking great questions.

MTV

Yup...it's time to do the cost/benefit/budget analysis to find that need vs want. A PA 22/20 does seem to fit alot of my needs so far, and I agree with the post above, I'd be willing to buy something closer to home and pay more than deal with the process across the county but gosh darn there seems to be a lot of planes calling my name in Alaska right now that seem to fit my bill.....I would live the farthest state away from Alaska.