Will VG's give the Robertson STOL the roll rate of the stock wing? I understand VG's will help the roll rate, but will it be as good as stock? That is my question. Will VG's give the Robertson wing as effective ailerons as stock?

Roll rate has nothing to do with running out of aileron in a cross wind. If it's roll rate you are concerned about get a Pitts or give the rudder a good kick before you apply ailerons, will significantly increase the roll rate. If you are running out of aileron in crosswind land at a greater angle into the wind, your flying a RTOL 185 afterall, you can land super short. [emoji1] no offense meant, just funning


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Ok, so I'm looking for more effective ailerons during x wind landings. Once again the question is not how and where to land, I'm sure you are much better at it than me, but will VGs make the Robertson ailerons as "effective" as stock?

Are you running out of rudder or lift? I am assuming the aileron(s) is/are hitting the stops? If so, need more airspeed?

Interesting that you would post this thread now. Just yesterday I was eyeballing a 180 owned by a guy at my airport which is R-STOL equipped. He had a similar gripe about the lack of aileron effectiveness when landing in a crosswind, and was asking me if I thought VG's would fix that. In addition, his airplane has an XP Mods locking tailwheel which he installed a number of years ago. When the t/w is locked, there is somewhat less rudder travel than when it's unlocked. He griped about that too, but I would think that the lack of aileron power would be more of a detriment than the limited rudder travel.

He demonstrated the aileron-droop feature for me, the ailerons go down progressively farther with 10, 20, & 30 degrees of flaps- but then back up a bit at 40 degrees. I knew about that, but always thought the ailerons were weak due to the limited down travel. What I didn't think about is that the up-travel of the other aileron is similarly limited due to the carry-through cable linking them together. Bottom line, I don't think I'd care to have that feature on mine.

I think the solution to the limited aileron authority would be to land without any flaps at all in a bad crosswind. I'll probably get rocks thrown at me on this one, but I installed a set of Micro VG's on my old C150/150TD and was very underimpressed with the claimed increase in aileron and rudder authority. I noticed very little if any improvement. I have heard that they work well when added to a Sportsman cuff, maybe so, but I would never again install them on a stock Cessna wing.

Re his locking tailwheel: when I need extreme rudder action on the ground, usually some tailwheel action is / would be helpful too, so I don't think I'd care to have a locking tailwheel either. FWIW XP Mods is defunct, and from their website it isn't clear if Tom Anderson's new outfit The Landing Gear Works offers a locking t/w assembly.

I have flown two planes before and after micro VGs were installed. The first was a Maule m-5 that I installed VGs, and the second a 206 that the company installed the VGs. On the Maule the difference was huge to the positive, basically all the things that the VG company claimed were true. On the 206 there was absolutely no difference at all. In other words I think that you will have to install them to find out. Fortunately they are relatively inexpensive, and don't take very long to install.

[quote="Headoutdaplane"]I have flown two planes before and after micro VGs were installed. The first was a Maule m-5 that I installed VGs, and the second a 206 that the company installed the VGs. On the Maule the difference was huge to the positive, basically all the things that the VG company claimed were true. On the 206 there was absolutely no difference at all. In other words I think that you will have to install them to find out. Fortunately they are relatively inexpensive, and don't take very long to install.[/quote]

Most cubs I have flown have VG's, would not own one without. Have flown Cessnas with and without. VG's do a lot of good to a pre '73 wing. Sportsman is my favorite mod to a Cessna wing. My question is specific to the Robertson wing. Id rather get some input before i spend $1500 to find out. I'd much rather spend $1500 on 25 hours of fuel.

[quote="8GCBC"]Are you running out of rudder or lift? I am assuming the aileron(s) is/are hitting the stops? If so, need more airspeed?[/quote]

Once again, I'm not looking for advice on how to land. I am looking for first hand experience with VG's on a Robertson 185.

wingnut185 wrote:...... At 4k hours of mostly conventional gear aircraft I'm a relative novice at this flying thing, but somewhere between J3 and DC3 i got the general idea of how the controls work.

Don't worry, eventually you'll catch on.

wingnut185 wrote:

8GCBC wrote:Are you running out of rudder or lift? I am assuming the aileron(s) is/are hitting the stops? If so, need more airspeed?

Once again, I'm not looking for advice on how to land. I am looking for first hand experience with VG's on a Robertson 185. At 4k hours of mostly conventional gear aircraft I'm a relative novice at this flying thing, but somewhere between J3 and DC3 i got the general idea of how the controls work.

Just starting out? It will come

Give Willie Stene at Stene Aviation a call. He has a RSTOL A185F and an A185F without RSTOL. He will give you first hand experience and he knows these wings better then most anyone.

+1 (406) 883-6244

Wanna fly one so equipped and decide for yourself first hand? If so shoot me a PM, removing anyone else's opinion habits or ideas is often worth it's weight in gold…

Take care, Rob

My own 180J is RSTOL and VG equipped and the 180J I fly 135 is just a Horton cuff. The answer you wanted: The VGs DO NOT restore the stock roll rate, but I suspect there is a decent benefit to the VGs as I don't feel there is a "major" difference. Going into Salmon, ID there is often a decent crosswind and it is nice not to have to think about any reduced aileron performance when pushing limits of weight and wind. Both planes will feel sluggish in roll when you get them slowed to the same speeds. Unfortunately I have not flown the RSTOL on the Skywagon without the VGs. If you wanted to bring yours to Boise, we could have a decent flight comparison. I will admit I wasn't sold on the system until I saw how effective it was when lifting max loads off the water and snow in short distances, where you are screwed for performance if you drag your tail in either surface.
If you are not a pansy, the tailwheel lock should not mechanically limit rudder travel, but it sure as hell will make you work for that last bit... Same with the rudder centering device or aileron rudder interconnect required for float OPS.

Thanks Matt, could not agree more about the usefulness of RSTOL on the water. I spend a fair bit of time in your neck of the woods, and i just might take you up on a flight.

thanks Rob, just might take you up on a ride.

Barnstormer wrote:Roll rate has nothing to do with running out of aileron in a cross wind. If it's roll rate you are concerned about get a Pitts or give the rudder a good kick before you apply ailerons, will significantly increase the roll rate. If you are running out of aileron in crosswind land at a greater angle into the wind, your flying a RTOL 185 afterall, you can land super short. [emoji1] no offense meant, just funning


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I found this worked well for the 206 we had.Lead way more with the rudder with the robertson.

Not a 185, but have a 1962 182F with Robertson kit. Added VGs after several years of flying. I doubt the VGs make it same as non-robertson plane, but without a doubt vgs did improve handling. The Robertson is an expensive add on (was on plane when I purchase it), and is great for escaping the ground. Any loss of control from drooped ailerons is worth the working of the Robertson in my book. VGs just made it somewhat easier in xwind.

Sean

wingnut185 wrote:

8GCBC wrote:Are you running out of rudder or lift? I am assuming the aileron(s) is/are hitting the stops? If so, need more airspeed?

Once again, I'm not looking for advice on how to land. I am looking for first hand experience with VG's on a Robertson 185. At 4k hours of mostly conventional gear aircraft I'm a relative novice at this flying thing, but somewhere between J3 and DC3 i got the general idea of how the controls work.

I laughed. Good response.

Guys, if you're going to respond to threads like this, make a good effort to comprehend what the OP is asking before giving tangential unsolicited advice. A good rule of thumb when asking yourself "should I post?" is to ask "can I answer this specific question with an authoritative answer that helps the OP?"

If not, you're probably contributing to cluttering the thread. We joke about thread hijacking but in reality it is annoying for people looking for information in earnest. This is a phenomenon endemic to all forums, but I'll be the jerk moderator to remind you of it.

hotrod180 wrote:When the t/w is locked, there is somewhat less rudder travel than when it's unlocked.

ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE! This is on of the biggest misconceptions about the tail wheel lock and it just isn't true. I wouldn't own a 185 without one and I've installed one on a bunch of skywagons. I don't understand the aversion to something that helps keep your tail wheel aircraft pointed straight.

As for the OP's question, I have flown a Robertson equipped Skywagon wi VGs and it may have helped, but the roll rate with flaps down still sucked. I've worked on more than one wagon with the Robertson disabled.

wingnut185 wrote:thanks Rob, just might take you up on a ride.

Anytime, and in case our paths don't cross before you decide to pull the trigger or not, I'll just add this;
Having flown my RSTOL wagon with and without VG's I'd have to say Matt is pretty much spot on. They won't match it up to a stock wing, but then a stock wing won't hold a candle to an RSTOL in other areas. I have no scientific way to tell you how much roll rate you'll get back, but I'd guess it'll be somewhere in the middle of a stocker and an RSTOL without VG's.

Hope you (and Zzz ) don't mind, but I will add the following for others who may be curious about RSTOL. You will already know the following, but with RSTOL, the misconceptions are many.

Outside of the decrease in roll rate the RSTOL also gives you a slightly heavier feel on the controls (because your moving more control surface) Slightly heavier flaps to pull (as you already know, a non event if pulled at appropriate speeds) slightly different elevator effectiveness due to the elevator interconnect (not all sky wagons have this, it depends on the individual kit) and a fairly good difference in deck angles for a given (slow) speed.


Take care, Rob