We are coming into the windy season the the Oregon Coast. The last several times I have flown it has been blowing low 20's and gusting close to 30. I have noticed that I tend to land with less flaps when landing into a strong headwind.....Seems that it is easier to get your airspeed back up if a gust sends you 10ft into the air just as you are about to touch down. With full flaps, the airplane is much dirtier and does not accelerate as quickly if power is added to get control back and the airplane straightened out.

Just wondering what the different school of thoughts are out there?

You bring up an interesting conundrum. You are correct that full flaps will cause the airplane to decelerate more quickly in a gust event. The other side of that coin, however, is that partial flaps is GENERALLY the best Lift/Drag configuration for most airplanes. What that means is that, with partial flaps, the airplane will create more lift when exposed to a gust event.

Realistically, the choice is going to be different for most aircraft types.

I think one of the most common mistakes many pilots make in a wind is that they carry too much extra speed, and that gets them in trouble. While you may need some additional speed in gusty conditions, you need to keep it reasonable. A lot of extra speed is going to be hard to scrub off once you're over the landing surface, PARTICULARLY if you are using less than full flaps.

There's really no wrong answer here. Use what you're most comfortable with, but most of all, practice, practice, practice and finally, be willing to say NO and take your parade somewhere else.

MTV

highroad wrote:We are coming into the windy season the the Oregon Coast. The last several times I have flown it has been blowing low 20's and gusting close to 30. I have noticed that I tend to land with less flaps when landing into a strong headwind.....Seems that it is easier to get your airspeed back up if a gust sends you 10ft into the air just as you are about to touch down. With full flaps, the airplane is much dirtier and does not accelerate as quickly if power is added to get control back and the airplane straightened out.

Just wondering what the different school of thoughts are out there?

Having a STRONG wind -Dancing WIND Airport at Boulder City ,NV. Yesterday i was coming back from the ranch and arriving at 61b with winds reported as
19 gusting to 31 down runway 15. I shot my down ind and slowed to 100 incated. I turned final over the golf course and slowed to my 70 mph inicated.
NO Flaps and kept runway heading with rudder,aircraft crossed the end of runway at about 60 indicated> I glanced over at my GPS and it said 33mph across
the ground !

I was taught to use less flaps in gusting or strong wind situations. I was also taught to take 1/2 the gust speed and add it to my final approach speed. However, even with my limited experience I have learned to be very cautious when dealing with strong winds especially when they are gusting. As mtv implies the technique is going to vary widely among aircraft types and nothing beats practice with your aircraft.

I recently damaged my aircraft landing in 250 3kts/gusting to 21. I chose runway 24, half flaps and 80 mph on final. What ASOS and wind sock did not tell me was that the gusts were from 330. Had I known that I would have chosen 34 and accepted the 3 kts of crosswind. My skills were inadequate when immediately upon touchdown I was hit with the gust 80 or 90 degrees to my right. I chewed up a wingtip, among other things, before coming to a halt.

The moral to the story is that gusting conditions can imply large swings in wind direction. Would no flaps have helped? Maybe, but the maximum recommended crosswind component for my Maule is 12 mph. The 21 kts, or 24 mph, of crosswind was twice that. Would a wheel landing have helped? Perhaps, but that is difficult to execute in a naturally tail heavy Maule with three people on board and no evidence (to me at least) it was necessary.

As I said, now I am even more cautious about strong winds.

Good thoughts.
Skystrider: Glad to hear the damage was not worse and thanks for sharing your experience so we can all learn.....

It sounds like it may not be a bad Idea in gusty conditions to spend some time observing the wind sock or water/trees/smoke etc. even if this means circling for a bit and shooting some approaches to get the "feel" of the true conditions at hand

...And don't be committed.... And practice those go-arounds with different initial flap settings so you're ready for how the plane reacts when you go full throttle...

Great point about practicing flap position and different power settings.....My Pacer, trimmed for landing with full flaps requires full down elevator when full power is brought in to go around. You have to get on the trim immediately to maintain airspeed.

I use lots of flaps, personally. I like to contact the ground with the least amount of speed possible then close my eyes until the noise stops. I tried the "drive it on hot when it's gusty" stuff a few times, always seemed harder to handle than just slowing it down like a normal approach.

gb

highroad wrote:Great point about practicing flap position and different power settings.....My Pacer, trimmed for landing with full flaps requires full down elevator when full power is brought in to go around. You have to get on the trim immediately to maintain airspeed.

That's just like my 170A. Lots of forward pressure and be reaching for the trim wheel

gbflyer wrote:I use lots of flaps, personally. I like to contact the ground with the least amount of speed possible then close my eyes until the noise stops. I tried the "drive it on hot when it's gusty" stuff a few times, always seemed harder to handle than just slowing it down like a normal approach.

gb

That's how I do it to. Set up the pitch and use the power for the airspeed, then just drive it on in and slow it down asap. Plus I never like to miss an opportunity to land in less than 100 ft.

I can't speak for anything but 180s, but no more than 20degrees is recommended for cross winds in the 180 and with good reason. The flaps tend to blank out the rudder and make it less effective (same with most taildraggers). The same problem happens when the tail is lowered, so it is best to keep the tail up as long as possible.

There is no doubt with the 180 that lower flap settings and wheel landings increase control.

The thing that puts my hairs on end are the gusts. NM is a wonderful place to fly (clear blue skies most of the time), but if you can't deal with the wind you are in trouble. That said, the unpredictable nature of gusts are really vexing. Especially in NM, we will have gusts and dust devils happening simultaneously. Accordingly, I will echo a comment made earlier that it is important to not be committed until you are sure you are down and under control.

Regards, Larry

As I noted in my earlier post, there are a LOT of variables when you start talking about "wind". Gust factor is a huge one...Crosswind component is also....Flaps or no flaps, or something in between is another.

But, I would again point out that every airplane is a little different. Every WIND condition is a little different as well.

As Skystrider noted, you can listen to the automated observer or even look at the windsock and then be totally surprised at what you actually find when you touch down.

I have seen several times where two wind socks on opposite ends of a runway, are pointed totally opposite directions, and standing straight out.

I tell my students to LOOK AROUND to figure out what the wind is doing. There are lots of wind indicators out there, some of the best being water bodies. Learn to read the water, or effluent from factories, etc to figure out what the winds are doing. If what you SEE disagrees with what the ATIS says, be prepared.

As to specific airplanes, I have to respectfully disagree with Larry on the 180 deal, BUT with a caveat, and that is yet another variable: runway surface.

I've landed a 185 with a 23 knot crosswind at 60 degrees (long story, and it would have been a better idea to go elsewhere). I landed on a gravel runway, and landed full flaps and three point. That is a personal preference of mine, for those airplanes. BUT, the criteria are: Unpaved surface and relatively steady wind. Plant it and stand on the brakes with full back elevator. It works. If the wind were gusty, I'd go somewhere else. The bigger Cessna taildraggers can eat you alive in a gusty crosswind.

But, again, lots of variables, and some of that is personal preference. The majority of my 180 and 185 landings have always been wheel landings, but not in big crosswinds. Some folks will say I'm nuts, but it works.

Again, figure out what YOU are comfortable with, practice and stick to your principles.

MTV

mtv wrote:Again, figure out what YOU are comfortable with, practice and stick to your principles.
MTV

I'm with you on the practice. I only fly a little Savannah, so I don't know nothin' about taildragging. But I'm lucky to fly out of an airport with two runways, so I almost always use the runway with the most cross wind. This keeps an old, Johnny-come-lately practiced up a little.

With my little, light, Savannah, I don't use flaps normally, so I definitely don't want the extra lift in gusts or cross winds. It can be pretty disconcerting at times when the plane is rolling and yawing like crazy on final, but so far, when it gets into ground effect, the thing seems to smooth out pretty well.

tom

Speaking of winds, I had a weird experience about 40 years ago. Coming home from western North Dakota at midnight in my 8-E luscombe with a horrendous tail wind and a ground speed of 176 MPH at 4500 ft. , I slowed down for landing as best as I could and started worring about how I was going to land that sucker with all that wind and no landing lights ! Got it down to pattern altitude , turned base , and finally a long final, got down to about 300 ft. and BOOM , - No Wind at all. Landed and looked at the lighted windsock - It was limp as a wet noodle !!! John

Skystrider,
the placard in your Maule should read "max DEMONSTRATED crosswind ...mph" this what the FAA requires a manufacturer to demonstrate to get the type certificate.
It is I think, the same as for a C172 etc. It is not a crosswind limit, that is up to us p.i.c's

mtv wrote:
I've landed a 185 with a 23 knot crosswind at 60 degrees (long story, and it would have been a better idea to go elsewhere). I landed on a gravel runway, and landed full flaps and three point. That is a personal preference of mine, for those airplanes. BUT, the criteria are: Unpaved surface and relatively steady wind. Plant it and stand on the brakes with full back elevator. It works. If the wind were gusty, I'd go somewhere else. The bigger Cessna taildraggers can eat you alive in a gusty crosswind.

But, again, lots of variables, and some of that is personal preference. The majority of my 180 and 185 landings have always been wheel landings, but not in big crosswinds. Some folks will say I'm nuts, but it works.

MTV

Is the 180 and 185 less capable in cross winds than the average 4 or 4 plus seat taildragger?
I am not implying that the crosswind you mentioned was light, just that these planes seem to be the "do all - done that" plane. I have never flown one, but the last couple of posts got me wondering.

maules.com wrote:Skystrider,
the placard in your Maule should read "max DEMONSTRATED crosswind ...mph" this what the FAA requires a manufacturer to demonstrate to get the type certificate.
It is I think, the same as for a C172 etc. It is not a crosswind limit, that is up to us p.i.c's

You are correct. I should have used the word "Demonstrated" rather than "Recommended". In either case, twice that speed makes me a scaredy cat!

Small tail,

I'm not sure what your question is. The 180/185 can be a handful in a gusty wind, but it can handle anything most any other high wing airplane can handle, and more than many. The limit on many, if not most airplanes on crosswind capability is how much rudder authority they have. When you run out of rudder to hold it straight, you go somewhere else. In that regard, the 180 and 185 have excellent rudder authority, more than many aircraft.

The Cessna spring gear is what makes landing these airplanes in gusty winds a little busy. That gear can flex and then slingshot the other way, making for a busy time for the pilot. With well aligned gear and a competent pilot, they are perfectly capable of handling a lot of wind.

My example wasn't offered as the maximum crosswind that the airplane can handle, but rather that in what most would agree is a lot of wind, I felt most comfortable using a three point ON GRAVEL surface. Had that landing been on pavement, I'd have gone ten or so miles away, and landed into the wind.

MTV

^^ And if your 180/5 has a STOL kit you might have options like taxi ways or infield grass open to you, which would alleviate the need to test your and your plane's crosswind limits.

Small tail - as far as airframe-specific crosswind limitations go, I love when the small tail vs big tail Stinson debate rages. When that pops up, as it periodically does, on the Stinson forum I just grab some popcorn and enjoy

MTV,

That answered my question. Your comment "The bigger Cessna taildraggers can eat you alive in a gusty crosswind." and
88H's comment "no more than 20degrees is recommended for cross winds in the 180 and with good reason." just had me wondering if they were more difficult to handle in crosswinds than most.

Vick,

If I remember right you fly a Stinson, I sure hope it is a small tail, as the big tails just can not handle ANY crosswind.